cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Diomedes on August 14, 2011, 12:53:20 am

Title: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 14, 2011, 12:53:20 am
Ashwood Pike
(click to show/hide)

Awlpike
(click to show/hide)

Light Lance
(click to show/hide)

The ashwood pike has +1 length over the awlpike but, besides the price, is in every way about either equal or worse.  Consequently I rarely see an ashwood pike used by hoplite players.  Would other players like to see this weapon become more relevant?
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Civilian on August 14, 2011, 01:01:51 am
You can not use this weapon with a shield, so you do not see any hoplites using it.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Gorath on August 14, 2011, 02:12:33 am
You're both completely correct and I would +20 the idea to buff ashwood pike (I'm biased though because I use it instead of the awlpike cause it looks purdy imo).

But really, it makes no sense it can't be used with a shield, and stat-wise has no place or purpose.  It's an awlpike, only crappier.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 14, 2011, 02:56:31 am
Quote from: Civilian on August 14, 2011, 01:01:51 am
You can not use this weapon with a shield, so you do not see any hoplites using it.

That explains a lot.  I'm with Gorath in thinking it should be changed.

I think the Ancient Greeks used ashwood spears with shields in the off-hand.  <-- fun fact  :D
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 14, 2011, 06:42:44 am
It really does suck. This is not the only case of a weapon that needs buffing.
This nerf cycle is stupid, more weapons need to be buffed into equality.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 14, 2011, 06:31:13 pm
Quote from: Marathon on August 14, 2011, 06:42:44 am
This nerf cycle is stupid, more weapons need to be buffed into equality.

Or at least into a good niche.  The ashwood pike/spear, for example, could retain its stats but be usable with both a shield and on horseback.  This would, I think, make it the longest reaching practical hoplite weapon which could still be used on horseback.  It wouldn't be better than the light lance on horseback, though, nor would it be better than the awlpike as a hoplite weapon.  Instead it would have a niche in its versatility :)
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 14, 2011, 08:04:54 pm
I'd love to see it useful as a hoplite weapon, it really is just way worse than the awlpike. It is even slower!

I vote for giving it 93 speed and usable with shield. Make it an alternative to awlpike as hoplite weapon. Awlpike would have 2 more damage, 1 less reach, 1 less speed. Up the price of the ashwood to like 7k as well. [Alternatively give it 92 speed and leave the cost alone]
Horseback I can see, but ehhhhhh I'd rather see it given up to hoplites as a niche weapon. It would fit the theme and look almost perfectly. It is a shame that the awlpike is the best hoplite weapon with nothing really being close to as useful. Awlpike doesn't match the theme :(
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Civilian on August 15, 2011, 11:53:52 pm
If anything, the ashwood pike should at least be usable with shield.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Hotpokka on August 16, 2011, 07:22:01 am
Quote from: Diomedes on August 14, 2011, 06:31:13 pm
This would, I think, make it the longest reaching practical hoplite weapon which could still be used on horseback.
Bamboo spear is longer and can (against the rules) be used on horseback
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 18, 2011, 01:15:14 am
*Ninja bump in the hope of a ninja stat change*
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Leshma on August 18, 2011, 01:51:39 am
Ashwood Pike is excellent native weapon. Dunno why it sux so hard in c-rpg.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 18, 2011, 04:25:52 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 18, 2011, 01:51:39 am
Ashwood Pike is excellent native weapon. Dunno why it sux so hard in c-rpg.
because everything was rebalanced, ashwood pike just sucks at every category.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Gorath on August 18, 2011, 06:31:52 am
Quote from: Marathon on August 18, 2011, 04:25:52 am
because everything was rebalanced, ashwood pike just sucks at every category.

It's not that it sucks per se, it's just that it has no purpose or function.  It's basically an awlpike with downs.  Stats are just slightly crappier, and you can't use it with a shield.  Too short to be a real pike, too pointless to be a 2-directional hoplite spear instead of the awlpike, bamboo spear, or any of the 4-directional spears.  It just doesn't have a place within the internal balance.  *Other than looking good*
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: MouthnHoof on August 19, 2011, 04:58:46 pm
Ashwood is fine. It is an excellent cheap support polearms that I use often (1H/pole hybrid).

The awlpike is the more problematic one and its great added value comes from the ability to sheath it - which is stupid. All other polearms at lengths of 160+ are unsheathable. It should be flagged "cannot sheath" and then it becomes a more expensive and slightly upgraded version of the ashwood.

CANNOT SHEATH I SAY!

C A N N O T  S H E A T H

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Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 19, 2011, 07:23:22 pm
So your response to a request to buff and diversify the comparatively underpowered hoplite class is to nerf its most popular weapon?  The main issue here is that the ashwood pike/spear cannot be used with a shield.  Secondly, it's quite slow for a weapon with less damage than an awlpike. 

Perhaps:
- allow the Ashwood spear to be used with a shield
- keep the speed
- give it 4 attack directions

This would make it more commensurable with the awlpike while giving it its own vague niche.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Civilian on August 19, 2011, 11:35:01 pm
I agree with Diomedes's suggestions.

The awlpike is fine as is.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 20, 2011, 04:03:03 am
I knew the nerf train crew would roll into the station at some point in this thread.
"buff stuff into equality? No, Just nerf everything."
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 08:34:20 am
Quote from: Marathon on August 20, 2011, 04:03:03 am
I knew the nerf train crew would roll into the station at some point in this thread.
"buff stuff into equality? No, Just nerf everything."

cRPG "Nerf the world" - Cause that's how we roll... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: MouthnHoof on August 23, 2011, 01:29:43 pm
Who suggested to nerf everything? I did not propose any stats change to any weapon. The only thing I suggested was to make the awlpike a "cannot sheath" weapon like all the others at it size. The ashwood is a great weapon for its cost. Some guy wants make it his main weapon so he found another which costs twice as much and wants to make their stats equal. It would mean that the cost will have to go up, or the next cry would be that it is unfair that the awlpike is so expensive  - look! there is this ashwood pike here that is just as good and costs half as much...

Stop making everything top end weapon. We need a mid range that is cheap enough to be brought as a secondary and tossed away when you need to draw your main weapon. The awlpike just break the polearm logic by being sheathable. This is why so many people use it over other polearms, much more than its pure stats. Making it unsheable will not affect anyone who use it as their primary weapon. The unsheathable is the balance card for polearms which are powerful weapons with a dreaded stun. You want one? carry it in your hands!

For the record:
My main is a pole/1H hybrid. Yes I toss away my swiss/bill/ashwood when I draw my 1H to stand in a shield wall or duel somone.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 23, 2011, 09:52:16 pm
Quote from: MouthnHoof on August 23, 2011, 01:29:43 pm
Some guy wants make it his main weapon so he found another which costs twice as much and wants to make their stats equal


The main issue here is that the ashwood is good for nothing.  The awlpike is used so often because it can be used with a shield.  Besides that it's uncommonly short for a 2-attack direction weapon.  If the awlpike could not be used with a shield it would not be nearly so useful.  The ashwood pike, though, cannot be used with shield or attack in 4 directions.  It also cannot be sheathed.  It also has worse stats than the awlpike in almost every regard.  I don't want another awlpike, and I think the thread made that pretty clear, but a worthwhile alternative to the awlpike.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: MouthnHoof on August 24, 2011, 02:37:23 pm
The ashwood is 1 cm longer (negligible), 2 less thrust damage (still a very good 31p) and 2 less speed (borderline significant). It costs half as much, which means I can carry another weapon, or wear better armor in the same budget. The 4 swing directions and the ability to sheath on a 160+ reach weapon should not be, even though this is the case with the awlpike. Can you explain why the Swiss halberd has no swings?
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Spawny on August 24, 2011, 02:39:19 pm
Quote from: MouthnHoof on August 24, 2011, 02:37:23 pm
The ashwood is 1 cm longer (negligible), 2 less thrust damage (still a very good 31p) and 2 less speed (borderline significant). It costs half as much, which means I can carry another weapon, or wear better armor in the same budget. The 4 swing directions and the ability to sheath on a 160+ reach weapon should not be, even though this is the case with the awlpike. Can you explain why the Swiss halberd has no swings?

Last time I checked the awlpike had only 2 attack directions.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Diomedes on August 25, 2011, 01:25:04 am
Quote from: MouthnHoof on August 24, 2011, 02:37:23 pm
post

Some facts to consider which you may be unaware of:

- the ashwood pike has 2 attack directions - like the awlpike
- the ashwood pike cannot be used with a shield, unlike the awlpike
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: Kafein on August 25, 2011, 12:54:29 pm
What about turning the ashwood pike into a shorter version of the pike ? 1 attack direction, but speed increased to 95 or more to compensate.
Title: Re: Buff the Ashwood Pike
Post by: [ptx] on August 25, 2011, 01:38:28 pm
The price, it is a low tier weapon. Dunno why you can't sheath or use it with a shield, though. Would look great on "hoplite" chars.