cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on August 13, 2011, 07:10:07 pm
-
No, this not a troll post. I'd really like it if the game was changed so everything is much more expensive and to hardcode the equipment value we can use. Everyone just has too much money with no consequence. Were all a bunch of spoiled children in this game right now, and I think our Papi chadz needs to lay down the law.
This way we will see folks actually using all those midtier weapons, which to be honest right now are just useless filler(unless you are just starting). The game would no longer be folks weilding the most expensive weapons and expensive armor and would have to balance between the two.
ALSO make a hard coded "encumberance" based on value of the equipment, so folks can only wear so much worth of equipment. This would be losely based on some new attribute to the game.
This way, you have to choose wether to have really good character skills or use nice things.
Rough Example:
Merchant=1 skill point gives 1500g of equipment.
Merchant=2 skill points gives 3000g of equipment.
Merchant=3 skill points gives 6000g of equipment.
-
Bad suggestion. Write another one :)
-
Come up with something better than.
-
Come up with something better than.
Upkeep.
/thread
-
Not a good solution, too many players have over 300K.....upkeep is of no consequence.
-
Come up with something better than.
It's pretty simple. My suggestion would be serious nerf of high tier armor. This mod is starting to look like some fantasy shit where people can survive straight hit to the head, 5 slashes etc. It's ridiculous.
You make mistake, you die. It should be like that not battle of tanks.
-
Heavy armor's did actually make you near invincible....so I strongly disagree. We should make it that those armors are near impossible to use, but if you do you get large benefits.
The problem is folks do not need to balance between using nice things.
-
Only a small minority of players have a lot of cash.
Bad post but with good intentions.
It's pretty simple. My suggestion would be serious nerf of high tier armor. This mod is starting to look like some fantasy shit where people can survive straight hit to the head, 5 slashes etc. It's ridiculous.
You make mistake, you die. It should be like that not battle of tanks.
If you are wearing something like a great helm, it should protect well against crappy weapons like scimitars and stuff. Penetrating that much metal is hard, most of your damage is the concussive force. If Gothic Plate was as powerful as it was IRL, then people would rage post often.
If you want realism, make it where everyone has a set minimum 12 STR and 12 AGI and only can raise each up to 21. This way there is no massive deviation in supermen or lightning bolt characters, just like RL. This way everyone will take roughly the same damage. Oh yeah, and get rid of to make sure everyone's HP is near the same. (For the record, I would hate that though).
-
Im sure if the devs pulled out the numbers they would see a very large percentage has too much wealth. My guess is around 40-50 percent.
Also, you recongnize as this to be a problem....so instead of knocking it down suggest a better solution.
-
Fail suggestions.
If I think an anti-upkeep thread is dumb, then it must be really bad. Cause I'm usually against it myself.
Made up stats are lols. I genuinely don't think that many people have such large pools of money. Maybe 15% have anything over 300k.
I see plenty of people in medium tier equipment. In 100 person server there are maybe 3-4 full tin cans per team, maximum. Often far less than this. Everyone else is running around in, at most, transitional. Again, usually far less.
I don't see the issue.
-
My guess is around 40-50 percent.
What?
Um, no. The majority of us are still quite fucking poor thank you.
-
Not an anti upkeep thread.
-
I am a multi-gen archer for the past six months, and my gear is about 12K (you can imagine the amount of cash that I have), and I recently found a way to reduce my money down to just 70K. Buying heirlooms. A person can only wear so many looms at once, so a character with 9 MW looms is not more powerful then a character with 30 MW looms.
Also, people are trading strat gold for real gold... that is a massive money sink right there.
I dunno, I am just OK with how much money people have right now, as most of the players on the field still wear normal or crappy stuff, and only a small percentage wear really good stuff.
-
Not an anti upkeep thread.
It is in saying upkeep doesn't work the way you want it.
-
Im saying upkeep has no effect on persons of said wealth. Also, not everyone is involved in strat and this post is based on the individual fighter while ingame. So instead of folks running around +3 heirlooms of top tier equipment they have to balance that out between using +3 heirlooms and low-mid tier equipment.
Not to mention this will eventually become a strat problem cause they will have too much bloody money as well.
-
Im saying upkeep has no effect on persons of said wealth. Also, not everyone is involved in strat and this post is based on the individual fighter while ingame. So instead of folks running around +3 heirlooms of top tier equipment they have to balance that out between using +3 heirlooms and low-mid tier equipment.
Which most people already have to do? I don't know many people who can afford to roll all their best equipment all the time. It is simply to expensive and there really aren't that many players who do it. The ones who do are the ones who have been here for a long long time (and you can't punish them for that), or have had the sense to sell heirloom points and so make money that way, in which case they won't have +3 heirlooms.
-
Ive been around for a long time, and still think its wrong that folks can weild everything OP just because they have the money for it.
Its also not just that, there is a whole waste of weapons ingame that will never be used because people can use and afford to use the highest level.
-
Not a good solution, too many players have over 300K.....upkeep is of no consequence.
I'm relatively new player, 4 gen now, 3 heirlooms + 1 which I bought. Currently I have about 200k gold. In future I want to buy a few more heirloomed things. And most of time I use Pilgrim Disguise and the similar stuff except weapon. So stop complain and just try to understand how money mechanics works in cRPG.
And upkeep is fine now [maybe not the best {horse} but pretty nice].
-
I don't think there should be equipment restrictions, but the upkeep on high-tier stuff should be increased a lot. Especially with the introduction of valour, I make OBSCENE amounts of gold.
Anyway, people with mid-tier stuff won't be affected and it just goes after people who still wear plate every round.
-
they dont need anything new, just need to increase the effect of weight and make it slow people down more
-
If you make everything much expensive this will hurt new players and casual even more, if i don't have a lot of money how could i afford higher tier equipment?
Thus only, hardcore and veteran will have uber gear and i will feel like a poor peasant slaughtered by knights...
-
Not a good solution, too many players have over 300K.....upkeep is of no consequence.
If you make everything much expensive this will hurt new players and casual even more, if i don't have a lot of money how could i afford higher tier equipment?
Make upkeep relative to the money you have. If you have like a flamberge you could suffer upkeep of 1/10th of your money. That would work.
Best suggestion ever btw.
-
Make upkeep relative to the money you have. If you have like a flamberge you could suffer upkeep of 1/10th of your money. That would work.
Best suggestion ever btw.
No.
-
I don't like any of the ideas being proposed in this thread.
Just balance the items and none of this bullshit is needed.
-
If you are wearing something like a great helm, it should protect well against crappy weapons like scimitars and stuff. Penetrating that much metal is hard, most of your damage is the concussive force. If Gothic Plate was as powerful as it was IRL, then people would rage post often.
If you want realism, make it where everyone has a set minimum 12 STR and 12 AGI and only can raise each up to 21. This way there is no massive deviation in supermen or lightning bolt characters, just like RL. This way everyone will take roughly the same damage. Oh yeah, and get rid of to make sure everyone's HP is near the same. (For the record, I would hate that though).
Reducing stat differences and base HP would actually force players to use more skill with directional combat and would make it easier to monitor/balance the game. Plate should should function realistically, but be far more expensive, at least in the initial cost of purchase.
-
doing this will only make the new players suffer.
do you think im gonna care if it gets more expensive, i got around 250k for repairs atm.
if you make the upkeep higher, means that the newer players will use weak equipement while i still wear the highest.
yes i want this make me more OP
BTW,
i am in for making plate armor stronger, but alot slower .
make weight like 50??
so they become tanks but very very slow id say that fits better.
-
i am in for making plate armor stronger, but alot slower .
make weight like 50??
so they become tanks but very very slow id say that fits better.
Ever tried wearing plate with zero athletics? It's fun. I can only imagine how much more fun it'd be if that effect was doubled.
sarcasm
Seriously though the devs should actually implement some of these ridiculous suggestions (gather all the bad ideas they can about all weapons, armor and everything else) and make a patch and have people play with these new values and see how people like them. Just for a week or whatever. Another rule would be no suggestion made by a player for their own class/weapon will be considered, meaning for example suggested changes to archery would be made by non archers, suggested changes to plate armor would be made by non plate wearers etc etc. Then we'd finally see just how 'objective' many people really are. I predict it would be a total disaster of game balance (yet funny).
-
I don't like the merchant skill idea. Also, I think the reasoning here is wrong. If you increase general upkeep, it will be the poor people who suffer more than those who have the huge stockpiles of gold. This suggestion may conceivably solve that issue in the long run, but short of a wipe, I wouldn't count on it.
That said, I do think upkeep in general should be higher. People whine and groan every time upkeep is raised, because as you said, they're spoiled. Nobody likes to have to downgrade, even if it would end up making the game better. Many go as far as to take it personally, as if they're the only ones with higher upkeep, saying things like "OMG now that I have to wear this crappy shit, I can't kill anyone and everyone kills me in one hit!" This reasoning completely ignores the concept of relative strength and the fact that if everyone is forced to use crappier gear than this won't be the case at all.
As it stands, the majority of items, weapons especially, are incredibly underrepresented. The only people who use anything other than the highest tier weapons are people who are just starting out. Otherwise, who uses a light one handed battle axe, when they can easily use a broad one handed battle axe? Not even including valour, the average player (wins 50%) can maintain 46k gold worth of equipment, not including arrows or low wpf weapons. This could be a *lot* lower.
At the moment, the only real economic decisions you have to make is how long you can run around in full plate or armored horses. I think the game would be much better with more meaningful trade offs and opportunity costs. If you want higher tier armor or weapons, you'll have to make a sacrifice elsewhere in your equipment choices or in your wallet. As it stands, we have far too many knights.
Of course, you wouldn't be able to increase upkeep in one fell blow, without inspiring outrage and indignation, so I imagine it will have to be gradual. I liked the strategy (at least that's my theory) employed this last patch. Raise upkeep to by some large amount, all hell breaks loose in the community, then readjust upkeep such that it has still increased from prepatch, but now looks much more reasonable compared to the upkeep prehotfix. This is a standard technique employed by parents of spoiled children. :P
-
Sure, make everything outrageously expensive. But after that is done I don't want to hear this 'see sawing' back and forth of wanting things to be very restrictive and basically not worth the effort to get and money to use and maintain yet simultaneously complaining when people still find a way to do good with very cheap gear despite all the obstacles.
-
A set cost limit for equipment would be unfair, because some "classes" need much more money to be as effective as others. E.g. heavy cav would be impossible.
-
We don't see many mid-tier weapons because even top-tier ones are quite cheap (10k for most of them), unlike plate armor which is superior to 20k or even 30k.
If we increased the price of most weapons, especially high-tier ones, it might solve the problem. Only those selling their heirloomed points would be able to afford crazy things like flamberge + milanese plate, but it would be at the cost of heirlooms, so it's fine imo.
-
doing this will only make the new players suffer.
^
That. Also add any player who doesn't have a large stockpile of gold period.
-
-1, one of the worst suggestions ever
-
doing this will only make the new players suffer.
Well, new players don't pay any upkeep at lvl 25 and under gen 1. I just started a new alt, and I have to say, I have no trouble getting decent equipment by level 15 and being semi-useful.
Also add any player who doesn't have a large stockpile of gold period.
The extent to which one group is punished must be seen as relative to the general population. People sitting on large piles of gold will certainly be able to ignore increased upkeep for a long enough time that the inequality is concerning. We're operating under the assumption that these moneyed people are a small minority, right? Ignoring these people, everyone "suffers" about the same, which is to say that relative strength should not be changed.
Players with large stockpiles of gold will be a problem regardless of stable upkeep levels. Raising upkeep means these players will have a larger relative advantage in the short term, but will equalize faster. Lowering upkeep means these players will have a lower relative advantage in the short term, but will take a lot longer to equalize. The only real solution to moneybags is a wipe. And that's if you consider moneybags to be a major problem.
-
Well, new players don't pay any upkeep at lvl 25 and under gen 1. I just started a new alt, and I have to say, I have no trouble getting decent equipment by level 15 and being semi-useful.
You have no problem now, but if you raise price of everything then new/money less player will not be able to buy good gear before long time.
-
I think we need to have a revolution and distribute the wealth equally among the masses! Down with the wealthy bourgeoisie!
-
The only real solution to moneybags is a wipe.
Are we talking 'moneybags' AFTER we had upkeep or before? Because I've made a good amount of gold AFTER upkeep was implemented. In fact that's where I've gained most of it. So are we now punishing players who aren't stupid noobs who buy stuff they can afford to maintain and play well enough to generate positive gold?
-
You have no problem now, but if you raise price of everything then new/money less player will not be able to buy good gear before long time.
I don't know how many times I have to say it, but raising upkeep proportionally brings everyone down. Relative strength, guys... New players will not need as good gear as they do now to compete if everyone else is also using mid tier stuff. In fact, assuming gold gain is untouched, increased upkeep will actually *HELP* new players. Stay with me here...
It takes 1,929,158 exp to reach level 26, at which point, you lose upkeep amnesty and have to start paying bills. Before this point, you get all the gold you've earned. At 1000 exp: 50 gold, you would get approximately 96458 gold in that time, all yours. This is plenty of gold to buy the high tier equipment needed to compete now, let alone what would be required if upkeep were raised.
Let's say, at the moment the average player uses 35k worth of equipment (this is just an example, the number itself doesn't matter). If you raise upkeep, then the average player will start to use less costly equipment, say 25k worth. What this means is that a new player needs less costly equipment, relatively, in order to compete with the average player and feel useful. This means that new players will have an EASIER time because they can get the equipment they need to compete at a lower level. Get what I'm saying?
TL:DR, All else being equal, raising upkeep HELPS new players.
I should qualify that statement by saying, this is assuming that the raises in upkeep come in the form of either increased break chance or increased repair cost. If they come instead in the form of increased buy cost of items, then raising upkeep does not help new players, but it does not penalize them either, so long as the total price for competitive equipment stays below 95000 gold. Combination increases in the aforementioned mechanisms would help new players, but less so.
Are we talking 'moneybags' AFTER we had upkeep or before? Because I've made a good amount of gold AFTER upkeep was implemented. In fact that's where I've gained most of it. So are we now punishing players who aren't stupid noobs who buy stuff they can afford to maintain and play well enough to generate positive gold?
Like I said, this is the only solution, but only if you consider moneybags to be a problem. Personally, I'm in the same boat as you. I only started playing after upkeep, and I've been steadily making money the entire time. That plus the fact that I sold a loom point, means that I could effectively ignore upkeep if I wanted, although I'm saving up for a MW HBS so I'm actually still very much paying attention to upkeep.
-
I don't know how many times I have to say it, but raising upkeep proportionally brings everyone down. Relative strength, guys... New players will not need as good gear as they do now to compete if everyone else is also using mid tier stuff. In fact, assuming gold gain is untouched, increased upkeep will actually *HELP* new players. Stay with me here...
It takes 1,929,158 exp to reach level 26, at which point, you lose upkeep amnesty and have to start paying bills. Before this point, you get all the gold you've earned. At 1000 exp: 50 gold, you would get approximately 96458 gold in that time, all yours. This is plenty of gold to buy the high tier equipment needed to compete now, let alone what would be required if upkeep were raised.
Let's say, at the moment the average player uses 35k worth of equipment (this is just an example, the number itself doesn't matter). If you raise upkeep, then the average player will start to use less costly equipment, say 25k worth. What this means is that a new player needs less costly equipment, relatively, in order to compete with the average player and feel useful. This means that new players will have an EASIER time because they can get the equipment they need to compete at a lower level. Get what I'm saying?
TL:DR, All else being equal, raising upkeep HELPS new players.
I should qualify that statement by saying, this is assuming that the raises in upkeep come in the form of either increased break chance or increased repair cost. If they come instead in the form of increased buy cost of items, then raising upkeep does not help new players, but it does not penalize them either, so long as the total price for competitive equipment stays below 95000 gold. Combination increases in the aforementioned mechanisms would help new players, but less so.
Like I said, this is the only solution, but only if you consider moneybags to be a problem. Personally, I'm in the same boat as you. I only started playing after upkeep, and I've been steadily making money the entire time. That plus the fact that I sold a loom point, means that I could effectively ignore upkeep if I wanted, although I'm saving up for a MW HBS so I'm actually still very much paying attention to upkeep.
I agree with all of this. I would like to see the high-tier stuff be something special and the only way to really do that is to dramatically increase the upkeep on it. I'm pretty sure the devs want this game to center around mid-tier gear and this would help achieve it.
I've always used mid-tier gear on all of my characters and it's very viable to use. Also, with the amount of money you make using mid-tier gear (I make truckloads) you can use it to pull out better stuff every once in a while for some fun.
-
I've always used mid-tier gear on all of my characters and it's very viable to use. Also, with the amount of money you make using mid-tier gear (I make truckloads) you can use it to pull out better stuff every once in a while for some fun.
So what exactly is wrong with the current system? It seems to work just fine. But yeah, why not increase upkeep dramatically and make most top tier items disappear completely. Then they can be removed from the game and everyone will profit from a smaller download size.
This sounds like archer-lobbying.