cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on August 06, 2011, 08:38:43 pm

Title: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thomek on August 06, 2011, 08:38:43 pm
Disclaimer:
(click to show/hide)

Premise:
When I think about it, nearly no one uses the shorter 2h handers, even the longsword, in battle.

The standard weapon for 2handers is the Danish.
Among polearms there are greater variety, but many of them are long weapons too. The shorter polearms are underused.
I strongly feel these trends leads to a predictable and boring battlefield, since the range advantage is OP. (it becomes a longest range game)

Solution:
Buff the damage of the shorter weapons together with a speed nerf of the longer weapons. Adjust prices accordingly. (Since no one wants to save $$$ on main wep anyway it seems.)

(Adding speed to the faster weapons more than we currently have leads to game breaking because of ping issues and netcode limitations afaik)

Result:
A more varied battlefied, where people wield a bigger range of weapons. No clear "Best" weapon, just a plethora of preferences.

Discussion
I expect a lot of resistance to these ideas, as the large majority of 2-handers are sitting on loomed danish swords and the like.
IMO weapon Range needs to cost more in performance. It is currently undervalued by the balancers.

Mind you that weapons performance may be well balanced in a DUEL situation, but this is not the way to truly balance a weapon, as this is a BATTLE game, and weapons needs to be balanced for Battle.

One problem with all this is the pricing situation. Naturally the best weapons should cost the most, but what i want suggest is a kind of TIER system where devs choose a handful of weapons of every Length-Category and make them top tier and costly.

for 2-handers it would look something like this: (Loose suggestion to illustrate the point)

Long 2h swords
TOP TIER: Danish, German and Sword of War cost the same - but are balanced to be of equal value on the battlefield. Preference should be the only difference.
2nd TIER Heavy Greatsword, Greatsword and Claymore - should be ALMOST as good as top tier, but MUCH cheaper. They are the budget alternative.
(I bet most people will choose top tier anyway. The price has to be low enough that people will consider using a 2nd tier sword.

Medium Length 2h weapons
TOP TIER: Long Sword - 2h Sword - Heavy Bastard(?!) Should cost THE SAME as Top tier Long 2h swords. But be equally valuable in a battle situation.
2nd TIER: Bastard Sword - Miadoao - Long Iron Mace. Budget versions of the above.

Short 2h swords
etc..

In between there are specialized  weapons of all types of course..

Anyway, the point should be clear.

People will always use the "Best"/ most expensive weapon. Make them equal in price, and equal in effectiveness. Tax range harder when you balance things. Make "budget" weapons cheaper.

One last predictable prayer:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Digglez on August 06, 2011, 08:44:34 pm
maybe its an euro thing, but theres LOTS of NA that use longswords.  They're so fricken fast they're hard to block.  THey're also a good amount of people using morningstars, that are just devastating if you get hit by it
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Camaris on August 06, 2011, 08:45:31 pm
Tought the same when playing last time with a heavy bastard.
Cool its cheaper but it loses a lot of range and a lot of damage for more speed.
Dont think its a good trade so i play most of the time with danish.

I disagree with the suggestion to make long 2h even slower.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thomek on August 06, 2011, 08:46:54 pm
well, it goes only for the longest 2handers, and polearm should be slower too.. So the internal long 2h and polearm balance should be the same.

It would give you a dilemma when it comes to shielders. Would be harder to kill them with the ultra-long weapons, but easier with a shorter one.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Rubicon on August 06, 2011, 09:36:21 pm
Basically you want counter the katana nerf by a global nerf on all 2h..
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Xant on August 06, 2011, 09:42:05 pm
The reason the shorter weapons aren't as used is just logical and can't be undone unless you give them some ridiculous buffs. In duel they are just as good, but on the battlefield you want reach so you can hit people while staying away from the enemy zerg horde and/or with your team's zerg.

You missing a backpedaller even though you have 8 athletics is just your own fault.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Cup1d on August 06, 2011, 09:43:29 pm
In other words you wanna buff:

2H department. Weapon shorter than 90 lenght

Maul
Great Maul
Mallet
Mace
Morningstar

Pole department. Weapons shorter or 120 lenght

Voulge
Shortened spear
Long Axe
Bec


Well, I think Voulge is useless weapon, but others do not look so bad.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Camaris on August 06, 2011, 10:50:36 pm
In one thing he is correct.
Long swords have
+ damage
+ range
- speed
- expensive

Shorter  have
+ speed
+ cheaper
-damage
- range

I dont know why all shorter swords have to be cheap and less damaging and almost every longer sword expensive but hard hitting.
You could also make some shorter swords more powerful and some longer cheaper.

For example Greatsword and heavy Greatsword could be cheaper with a little bit less damage and some of the shorts for example longsword or heavy bastard could get a bit more expensive but get more damage. So you would have more options on different price segments.

I still disagree with further nerfing of any top tier 2h cause they have lost a lot in the last patches.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thomek on August 06, 2011, 11:33:54 pm
Camaris got it right.

I'm not talking about nerfs here..

I'm just saying that there should be a greater variety in weapons actually being used. Therefore, shorter weps should be buffed so they would be used more. (To put it simple)

and rubicon, you are wrong. I'm not talking about the power of the 2h/pole weps in regards to other classes. Just an internal balancing so we would see a greater variation of them used.


Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: rustyspoon on August 07, 2011, 12:39:35 am
I'm all about diversity in this game. However, I think instead of buffing some I think they should look for new weapons to add to the game.

1 handers have the most diversity out of any other weapon class. Probably because there are 72 1-handers.

Polearms have 47 and 2 handers are WAY behind with only 38.

It's kind of sad when there are almost TWICE as many 1 handers as 2 handers in this game...
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Rubicon on August 07, 2011, 12:40:44 am
My point is that it's a pretty huge work in terms of balance, the reach is one parameter, not the main variable as damage is.
Any radical change in 2h have an impact on Pole/1h, whatever, the whole melee weapons must be reworked.. for the sake of diversity?
I'm pretty much with you for that part, but, what can be done? Danish/German will ever be the most used 2h, Kuyak as armour etc .. Seems like ppl don't care about diversity
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Laufknoten on August 07, 2011, 12:50:01 am
It's kind of sad when there are almost TWICE as many 1 handers as 2 handers in this game...
It's kind of sad, that there are more than TWICE as many 2 handers than 1 handers on the BATTLEFIELD...
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Siiem on August 07, 2011, 04:28:03 am
I'm not talking about nerfs here..

I'm just saying that the katana should be buffed so I can suck less.


No? It wont help.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Paul on August 07, 2011, 05:59:17 am
Premise:
Katana needs buff.

Solution:
Buff Katana!

Discussion:
Buffed Katana is buffed.

Dev response:
Katana nerf.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Bjord on August 07, 2011, 06:45:35 am
I see conflict of interest.  :|
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thomek on August 07, 2011, 07:00:29 am
Paul, don't make fun of such matters. Let's forget about the Katana in this discussion, I regret i even brought it up here and now.

Take a look out there. We have a boatload of weapons not getting used.

What I'm suggesting is that we rebalance + reprice them so that there are more equally "good" weapons out there.

I know it's work, and that the general balance out there is better than ever right now, and I do understand that you may not want to mess with it..
(But that's what you like to do right? :) )

Just.. everyone that is a pure 2h or polearm are spamming the longest weapon they can find atm. I think in all humbleness that you undervalue weapon length in your balance calculations, and testing things in duel, not in battle may also influence these decisions.

@Rubicon
I'm also for a reworking of armors and their requirements. With only 15 STR you can use up to Heavy Plate Armor, the fourth heaviest armor we have. That means that you can have a 15/24 Ninja with 8 athletics 173wpf and Heavy Plate Armor if you so wish it. What I want is more dilemmas as of what character you are actually building and what restrictions and advantages that will give. Of course the whole upkeep and economy makes everything more complex. The ultimate dream would be that characters, very light or very heavy, couldbe equally good on the battlefield. Without "optimal" builds like we see now. 24/15 21/18 2h with Danish and Heavy Kujak. There's so many of them right now, and it is BORING and uninteresting.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Punisher on August 07, 2011, 09:11:57 am
I see many people using shorter weapons like Heavy Bastard Sword, Longsword, Morningstar, Great Axe, Bar Mace, etc. Referring strictly to swords, shorter ones have significantly higher speed, while longer ones have higher damage and range but are significantly slower (let's compare Danish with Longsword for example, the 6 extra speed on Longsword is a huge difference, balanced out by 4 less damage and 18 less range). In addition to that there's the price argument, top tier swords cost almost three times more then the shorter ones and with the new upkeep that's a pretty noticeable difference.

Also don't forget that the new armor calculation was a significant buff for lower damage weapons by removing glances. I think internal 2H balance is better then it ever was, further nerfing on the top end swords will make them useless, just as buffing the shorter swords will only end in them being overpowered - and I'm saying this as a Miaodao/Longsword user.

As for the Katana situation, I don't think it needs a buff, just needs it's price lowered to ~5k.

Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Camaris on August 07, 2011, 01:30:33 pm
But you cant deny that 2h are balanced per range atm.
if a weapon is long it will be very expensive. Exceptions are perhaps Dadao and Goedendag.

I dont understand why there have to be around seven 1.20m sword in the 10k++ gold range and
none of those could be rebalanced to be cheaper.

I also dont understand why every shorter 2h is cheaper. If you say they are overpowered if they
get for example more damage then they probably are very good at the moment and should cost
a lot of money. That isnt the case. They are good but they werent overpowered with 40+ damage with
the old heirloom values. So why dont buff one of them in that damage range and nerf one long 2h back
in mid-tiers. Would give new Equipment choices for strategus too.

PS: I am only discussing about swords right now.
Morningstars for example are fine while 2h-axes are just
not worth it if you can get that pierce-damage monster.
In my opinion 2h would need a complete overall rebalance
but right now its about swords.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Kafein on August 07, 2011, 02:00:52 pm
This is an EU-only problem, but it is true the long polearm backpedallers are really a pain. NA people seem not to be doing that at all. And logically they all ended up being str builds and value speed rating more than reach. In EU, first of all many people do kickslashes and do it very well, then we have the way higher athletics average, and the rampant spam+backpedalling. When neither side uses it's reach advantage, combats are usually very long because people played this game for so long that feints and holds (atleast those of polearms, it's another story for 1h and 2h, but the slow and long versions work as good as the short and fast ones) don't really work anymore.

The so-called "OP" bec in NA is a rather weak polearm in EU because it's barely longer than a 1h. Furthermore, the pierce damage was nerfed to hell with the recent armor changes.

And finally, long weapons show their true power in group fights.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Mala on August 07, 2011, 02:48:32 pm
...

Also don't forget that the new armor calculation was a significant buff for lower damage weapons by removing glances. ...

What buff? In the end you cause less damage.

...
1 handers have the most diversity out of any other weapon class. Probably because there are 72 1-handers.
...
And how many of them are used? There are two major groups, the ones with longer range and medium speed and damage and the ones with short range, high damage and medium speed.
The rest rust in the armoury.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thomek on August 07, 2011, 03:26:23 pm
Mala is right, there is a similar situation among 1 handers.

Just I don't know anything about it..
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: RandomDude on August 07, 2011, 06:50:06 pm
the flamberge crew veto this

its supposed to be the longest range 2h weapon but with the polearm animations it can lose a lot of that

a slower speed would make it almost crap
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 07, 2011, 06:53:12 pm
Premise:
Katana needs buff.

Solution:
Buff Katana!

Discussion:
Buffed Katana is buffed.

Dev response:
Katana nerf.

So if I am reading this correctly, we should be getting another Katana nerf with the next patch, since you said Nerf not Is Fine, right? Shweet.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on August 07, 2011, 08:52:47 pm
I was actually surprised there wasn't one last time. But back on topic.

Yes longer weapons are better in most cases. Even in duelling 2handers prefer to use the greatswords.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Starfucker on August 07, 2011, 10:54:51 pm
NA player here. Just confirming that short 2h swords are common here. If you want better weapon variety, why don't you focus on the numerous 2h axes which are never seen on the battlefield.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Leshma on August 08, 2011, 03:17:56 am
Remove stab from all 2H swords, problem solved  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 09, 2011, 09:04:15 pm
NA player here. Just confirming that short 2h swords are common here. If you want better weapon variety, why don't you focus on the numerous 2h axes which are never seen on the battlefield.
Would be nice to see 2h axes have some sort of advantage. They currently just are vacuums of shittiness in comparison to the 2h swords or pole arm axes.
Make stats a bit better, buff one a little more than the rest but make it's cost more. Would be nice for a top tier 2h axe.
starfucker is referring specifically to the bastard swords & Long sword being common as hell in NA. They are good, the rest of that stuff? Lol. Never seen.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Starfucker on August 09, 2011, 09:48:00 pm
Miaodao seems pretty common too. Not sure if it counts though since it's almost as long as a claymore. So that leaves four swords which could certainly use a buff (katana, two handed sword, dadao and bastard sword).
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Thucydides on August 09, 2011, 09:57:01 pm
Would be nice to see 2h axes have some sort of advantage. They currently just are vacuums of shittiness in comparison to the 2h swords or pole arm axes.
Make stats a bit better, buff one a little more than the rest but make it's cost more. Would be nice for a top tier 2h axe.
starfucker is referring specifically to the bastard swords & Long sword being common as hell in NA. They are good, the rest of that stuff? Lol. Never seen.

lolz i don't know about you guys but i love the simplicity of the 2h axes. When i was 2h i spent half my playtime using the Persian battle axe (the one with 45 cut), man that thing was great. All you needed was one shot  and the weapon stun on that thing just feels so much better than my GLA
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Camaris on August 10, 2011, 04:00:52 pm
Miaodao seems pretty common too. Not sure if it counts though since it's almost as long as a claymore. So that leaves four swords which could certainly use a buff (katana, two handed sword, dadao and bastard sword).

Yeah buff my twohanded sword i heirloomed it :p (if someone wants to trade it for a 2h-axe pm me *g*)
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Vibe on August 10, 2011, 04:05:51 pm
Okay but that won't fix the problem, a lot of people fight by outranging (which I agree is gay) enemies with shorter weapons. Buffing shorter weapon damage won't really fix that.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 10, 2011, 04:20:54 pm
Yeah it will, creates a pro vs con situation.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Yugop on August 10, 2011, 05:06:33 pm
I find some short 2h to be more useful than swords in some situations. In siege, a 2h mace will prove more efficient in the end.
But overall it's true using 2h axes and maces is a lot more challenging than just waving around the DAN15 GR8SW0RD of pwnage.
On a side note, I can still manage to kill horses with a greatsword, even with the new stab. Intended ?

I wouldn't mind a buff honestly. With no thrust, weapons like the great axe or bardiche have no purpose : for pure damage, one will always prefer the morning star, especially now the crushthrough has been replaced by bonus against shields.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Camaris on August 10, 2011, 06:22:38 pm
I find some short 2h to be more useful than swords in some situations. In siege, a 2h mace will prove more efficient in the end.
But overall it's true using 2h axes and maces is a lot more challenging than just waving around the DAN15 GR8SW0RD of pwnage.
On a side note, I can still manage to kill horses with a greatsword, even with the new stab. Intended ?

I wouldn't mind a buff honestly. With no thrust, weapons like the great axe or bardiche have no purpose : for pure damage, one will always prefer the morning star, especially now the crushthrough has been replaced by bonus against shields.

Tbh some 2h axes could lose unbalanced.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Casimir on August 11, 2011, 12:21:10 am
Tbh some 2h axes could lose unbalanced.

don't play with 2h axes they are fine, they are pretty much the only ones that can be used from horseback except morning star, longsword and the bastards


some of the maces e.g. barmace, long iron mace that lost their crushthrough could do with a damage or speed buff to make them more appealing than the swords.

At the moment swords will be more popular than most low teir 2h because they are in everyway better, high damage, balanced, good speed and great raech.

Maces and axes have only high damage, and often not that much more.

@ OP, shorter 2h weapons have great speed and their damage is fine, a buff to that is not justified. HBS still 2/3 shots most people using an 18:21 build, hardly weak.  If you want to kill people easier get more ps. :P
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Dezilagel on August 11, 2011, 02:04:28 am
Meh, I don't see why all 2h axes carry the unbalanced tag. Without thrust, animations are not that much better than their pole counterparts, and I'd love to see more 2h axewielders (currently there're like none, the unbalanced tag means you sacrifice alot for that shieldbreak, there's little reason not to go pole if you want to use an axe).

As for axes from horrseback, afaik, the moringstar seems superior due to actually having the damage to kill stuff even after horseack reduction.

Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Casimir on August 11, 2011, 04:47:27 am
I 1hit most people with two handed war axe and persian battle axe from horse back.

As you said it makes sence to use a polearm for shield breaking because their weapons are better suited for it.

Also 2h axes deal a much higher raw damage than the morningstar and have better reach making them far better suited for fighting your average opponent.

If im not with a flamberge you'll normally find me with a HBS and an axe.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Leshma on August 11, 2011, 11:28:24 am
Longsword should have +1 slash damage to make it more appealing than HBS.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Berserkadin on August 12, 2011, 12:53:52 pm
I think that there should be atleast one higher tier 2-h axe
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Vibe on August 12, 2011, 01:01:06 pm
I think that there should be atleast one higher tier 2-h axe

A balanced one.
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Leshma on August 13, 2011, 06:15:13 pm
Longsword should have +1 slash damage to make it more appealing than HBS.

Quoted for justice!
Title: Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 14, 2011, 04:22:00 am
It's kind of sad, that there are more than TWICE as many 2 handers than 1 handers on the BATTLEFIELD...

it's kind of sad, that there are more than TRIPLE as many polearms than 2handers on the BATTLEFIELD...

thomek i agree with you tho. after playing a lot with all kind of weapons, i found that reach in big battles is a real advantage. i can't say how many times the sword of war saved me while the claymore wich is 7cm shorter than a danish, didn't.

reach is invaluable because can let you handle some 5vs5 brawl situation (when flanking and when engaging-disengaging).
we really need some love for the shorter weapons. but a damage buff would be nonsense.. why a already fast bastard sword should match or go near the damage of a way longer and heavier weapon? and that will modify the DPS (the speed/damage ratio would be screwed)

I 1hit most people with two handed war axe and persian battle axe from horse back.

As you said it makes sence to use a polearm for shield breaking because their weapons are better suited for it.

Also 2h axes deal a much higher raw damage than the morningstar and have better reach making them far better suited for fighting your average opponent.

If im not with a flamberge you'll normally find me with a HBS and an axe.

yes... polearm infantry (besides pikes) purpose is shieldbreaking while they have a not so good crushthru weapon too... the problem are the jack-of-all-trades poleaxes (balanced, shieldbreaking, awesome pierce, near the best swing damage and most of all stun)

example this
(click to show/hide)

is a really good stunner and shieldbreaker on a 13/27 build i'm testing... and it's cheap too.

we see a lot of people using low tier polearms (battleforks, long axes, military scythes) but almost noone with low tier 2handed besides hybrid xbowmen