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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elmetiacos on January 18, 2011, 01:11:55 pm

Title: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 18, 2011, 01:11:55 pm
There seem to be fewer and fewer people playing with two handers, apart from katanas. There are polearm users, but hardly anyone with a two handed sword. There's no-one left to fight: the majority of players are turtling up behind Huscarl shields (see the Balance Philosophy thread) which results in a stalemate or a guessing game - now the Great Maul has been nerfed into uselessness there's no way to counter the shield unless you're a Str build with very high PS, so you throw away your sword for an axe or switch to a polearm. The usual two hander build feels like it's no longer viable: pre-patch I could sometimes top the kills table and still did well enough at first after the patch but now the ground has shifted and I generally get more deaths than kills these days (don't bother saying "Learn to manual block LOL" that isn't the issue) and get the impression I'm a battlefield dinosaur.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Kalam on January 18, 2011, 01:13:44 pm
Strength build barmace. There's your two-hander!
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Siiem on January 18, 2011, 01:41:08 pm
2h is viable, only abit harder with all the projectiles flying around. Which means more turtlers, who can be a pain. But it's definitive not R.I.P yet.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Jaakko the Sire! on January 18, 2011, 01:49:37 pm
I carry two two-handers, a great axe to break shields, and a long sword or another two-handed sword when I face a skilled blocker.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Guts on January 18, 2011, 01:59:50 pm
i do fine with just running around with a danish sword (or for the old players sword of cookies ) i have no problem fighting a sheilder usaully i can get around to their back or feint my way in also the kickslash is tons of fun and i do run around as a ninja just for fun lol with a nodachi and katana but the game has changed so ur tactics as a 2h have to as well no more spamming sheilds but i will say its alot harder post patch but i do like how it weeds out those weak 2h who relay on spam and little to no skill
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Kalam on January 18, 2011, 02:51:08 pm
Quote from: Guts on January 18, 2011, 01:59:50 pm
i do fine with just running around with a danish sword (or for the old players sword of cookies ) i have no problem fighting a sheilder usaully i can get around to their back or feint my way in also the kickslash is tons of fun and i do run around as a ninja just for fun lol with a nodachi and katana but the game has changed so ur tactics as a 2h have to as well no more spamming sheilds but i will say its alot harder post patch but i do like how it weeds out those weak 2h who relay on spam and little to no skill

The problem is throwers, not other melee.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 18, 2011, 03:09:49 pm
Quote from: Elmetiacos on January 18, 2011, 01:11:55 pm
There seem to be fewer and fewer people playing with two handers, apart from katanas. There are polearm users, but hardly anyone with a two handed sword. There's no-one left to fight: the majority of players are turtling up behind Huscarl shields (see the Balance Philosophy thread) which results in a stalemate or a guessing game - now the Great Maul has been nerfed into uselessness there's no way to counter the shield unless you're a Str build with very high PS, so you throw away your sword for an axe or switch to a polearm. The usual two hander build feels like it's no longer viable: pre-patch I could sometimes top the kills table and still did well enough at first after the patch but now the ground has shifted and I generally get more deaths than kills these days (don't bother saying "Learn to manual block LOL" that isn't the issue) and get the impression I'm a battlefield dinosaur.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Teeth on January 18, 2011, 03:30:36 pm
Quote from: Guts on January 18, 2011, 01:59:50 pm
but i will say its alot harder post patch but i do like how it weeds out those weak 2h who relay on spam and little to no skill

Was it even easier before patch? I started 2handing postpatch and I still find it much easier than 2h polearming. Maybe its because i play siege mostly but I dont have that much trouble with throwers. And ninjaing with a katana is just too much fun.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ganon on January 18, 2011, 03:38:41 pm
2h works well with heavy equipment and a str build or with light equipment and an agi build. I also carry a shield and have some shield skill, going pure 2h is a suicide with that many projectiles.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Deathwind on January 18, 2011, 03:42:14 pm
I've seen plenty of two handers, and they usually carry a shield for getting close to an archer. Every melee infantry should have a shield, really. (Which is why I liked the fact that shields did not have any skill requirement in Native SP and anyone could equip one.)

Either, I suck at shielding (which is totally plausible), but I don't like the idea of "turtling up" unless I'm being mobbed by 6 foes at once.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ache on January 18, 2011, 03:44:32 pm
Im playing with Longsword and i top the scoreboards most of the time,it all about skill,learn to block and feint and u will slaughter everyone with a 2 handed sword.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 18, 2011, 04:58:07 pm
The replies confirm my opinion really - as I've seen on the battlefield, people have either gone for all Str and crushing people with big, heavy axes and/or Bar Maces or gone for all Agi and speed with the lighter swords. I found my typical pre-patch 18/18 build, mainly two hand but with a sideline in throwing javelins has done worse and worse. I think I'm going to have to start Andamaglas from scratch and work my way up again, which is a bit of a pain in the neck...
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Falka on January 18, 2011, 05:07:16 pm
Quote from: Elmetiacos on January 18, 2011, 01:11:55 pm
there's no way to counter the shield unless you're a Str build with very high PS (...) The usual two hander build feels like it's no longer viable
That's where you're wrong. I have quite balanced build - 18 str 21 agi - and after patch with my lovely s of tears I have better scores than previously. In spite of removing lolstabbing and nerfing s of tears.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Nogar on January 18, 2011, 05:15:54 pm
yea i dont know why would two hand be dead... i kill alot with my 2hand character :D
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: danrex on January 18, 2011, 05:20:23 pm
Man, I carry a pole without shield and I dont really feel owned by arrows and things like that...
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Gorath on January 18, 2011, 06:11:34 pm
I don't see it at all.  I still see a ton of 2hers roaming everywhere, the great maul still makes a shield obsolete and most bar mace users have the str to remove your RMB as well.

Hell lately I've been playing my 2her rather than my shielder when I go melee because it's much easier to 1-shot everyone who fucks up a block than to take 2-5 hits with a 1h'd weapon to drop em.  Granted I hybridized myself into throwing as well (or archery/xbow depending on which 2her I'm playing) but frankly I think it's rather silly not to take some kind of anti-ranged measure: be that some points in shield, or a ranged weapon yourself to keep pressure up.

I also use the War Cleaver as well, and deal with the difficulty inherent in it being unbalanced and slow.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: DrKronic on January 18, 2011, 08:10:47 pm
I do see more and more thrust slamming polearms than any other. Or polearms using the longer fast axes and maces they have access

Now that poleaxes use 2hand animation I imagine only the crazed like me will do 2hand

Add that to yet another round of weaken all 2hand swords(again) and buff them in polearm mode and you'll see at least the smart people bring out the horse rearing, shield using + all thrust spam.  (ats?), longer more damaging axes and maces

I mean compare the 9k katana to the bastard sword its funny
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ozwan on January 18, 2011, 08:15:31 pm
I used to play as 2h, it was pretty fun and satisfying considering the only worse hardmode possible is 1h without shield. Usually I was running around with a regular 2h - longsword or 2h sword - and great bardiche/axe to kill shieldboys, still though it was taking too long to kill a single guy who refused to fight. And Great Maul feels just wrong.

Problem solution: polearms. And 120 maul. ;)

PS. Oh, and the lolstab is just fine and still here.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Rhuell on January 18, 2011, 08:38:50 pm
i'm doing fine with my 2h, i probably should get some shield skill though...
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Cyclopsided on January 18, 2011, 09:38:14 pm
What? 2h RIP?
Ok. I am a polearm, and my next retirement I am going 2h. 2h is not dead, nowhere even close to it, adapt to the changing battlefield and tactics. Just because it isn't OP SPAM SPAM SPAM does not mean it is dead. I am kind of disappointed people are spamming with polearms now just because they get a hard-coded pole arm stun though.

Oh well.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: RandomDude on January 18, 2011, 09:51:07 pm
Quote from: danrex on January 18, 2011, 05:20:23 pm
Man, I carry a pole without shield and I dont really feel owned by arrows and things like that...

maybe ur not a threat man?

all i have to do is literally move my finger from the block key and i have arrows fired at me

i am 2 shot by bows in the chest again now even with brigandine + mail mittens (no iron flesh)

maybe u always flank and play smart tho - i dunno
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Tungsten on January 19, 2011, 12:59:59 am
Two Handed Swordsman

IE. Not Barmace or Maul or Katana which is the vast majority of 2handers. (Katana is Ninja, not swordsman)

I rarely see any greatswords on the ground anymore. Not surprising since with Balance losing -3 speed they weren't godmode anymore and now they lost an additional speed. I switched to Polearm till I can masterwork Tears and it's a whole hell of a lot more fun than 2hander so far.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 01:03:16 am
Quote from: Tungsten on January 19, 2011, 12:59:59 am
Two Handed Swordsman

IE. Not Barmace or Maul or Katana which is the vast majority of 2handers. (Katana is Ninja, not swordsman)

Warcleaver.  All the other lolswords can suck a fat one.  You're not a real 2h'd swordsman unless you handicap yourself with no lolstab and an unbalanced cutting weapons.  \m/.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ganon on January 19, 2011, 01:06:20 am
Yeah archers seem to like shooting at 2handers alot more than at polearm users. When i play smart and flank are the games where i get most kills, obviously lots of archers, it's the only way to get them to stop shooting, hit them with a sword! I don't use barmace or katana or maul, but a simple nodachi and i carry a warmace only vs some annoying shield user.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ghazan on January 19, 2011, 01:24:28 am
Wait did they just nerf the great maul in the latest patch cuz I was playing with it yesterday and it seemed to do fine.

Was making a balanced 2 hander either 18/18 or 21/15, switching between a great maul and bastard sword or war cleaver.  Lure the shielders in with my sword then quick switch and loloverhead smash!!

I'm refraining from going barmace, cuz I had a feeling they were going to nerf that, but the great maul you cant really use all the time as its not versatile enough so you have to bring 2 weapons.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: bruce on January 19, 2011, 01:30:12 am
Quote from: RandomDude on January 18, 2011, 09:51:07 pm
all i have to do is literally move my finger from the block key and i have arrows fired at me

You're a priority target. Plus, you fight in the frontlines...
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 01:33:16 am
You know the Warcleaver should get a bonus vs shields since it's unbalanced, slow and has no stab.  Just sayin.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Lt_Anders on January 19, 2011, 01:42:15 am
Quote from: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 01:33:16 am
You know the Warcleaver should get a bonus vs shields since it's unbalanced, slow and has no stab.  Just sayin.

Buy a great axe....

Tis what I use.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 01:48:42 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on January 19, 2011, 01:42:15 am
Buy a great axe....

Tis what I use.

Yeah, I could, but it doesn't look as cool.  Truthfully that's all the warcleaver really is though, a great axe minus the bonus to shields:

War Cleaver   5046   
weight 3.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92
weapon length 120
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 0 cut
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced

Great Axe   3247   
weight 3.25
requirement 14
spd rtng 94
weapon length 96
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield

Really it trades shield bonus and speed for a bit of extra reach.  I may just buy the great axe now that I stare at the side by side comparison directly.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Kaelaen on January 19, 2011, 01:53:52 am
I like you Gorath.  I too use the warcleaver simply because it looks cooler.  Clearly people trying to engage me in melee get stunned by how awesome I (we?) look and that's the only explanation why I get more kills with it than something faster like the longsword.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Lt_Anders on January 19, 2011, 02:10:00 am
Quote from: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 01:48:42 am
(click to show/hide)

It's cheaper adn weighs less.
Personally, that's one of the few swords i've never used(war cleaver). It just doesn't appeal to me. Looks more like something from the shivering isles oblivion expansion...
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Miley on January 19, 2011, 02:14:03 am
This is not the case on the North American servers : o
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Gorath on January 19, 2011, 02:22:52 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on January 19, 2011, 02:10:00 am
It's cheaper adn weighs less.
Personally, that's one of the few swords i've never used(war cleaver). It just doesn't appeal to me. Looks more like something from the shivering isles oblivion expansion...

Well the appeal is a matter of taste so to each their own.   :mrgreen:
I like the look of it because of that whole medieval Jason Vorhees thing and the War Cleaver looks like a giant machete, so it fits that theme.  But you're right, the axe is cheaper, faster, weighs less, gets a bonus vs shields and does the same damage.  It's just a little shorter.  And in the sword department, while losing 3 cut damage the Miadao is probably a much better lolstab-less sword than the cleaver, since it's not unbalanced (and faster as well).  Ah well, the sacrifices we make in the name of style.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: RandomDude on January 19, 2011, 05:04:00 am
Quote from: bruce on January 19, 2011, 01:30:12 am
You're a priority target. Plus, you fight in the frontlines...

lol i dont fight in the front lines too much any more its too risky

cans i not have the armour of "no shooty shooty or i smashy smashy"?
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Banok on January 19, 2011, 06:42:44 am
turtles own 2h sword
2h sword owns crusher
crusher owns turtle

its a rock paper scissors balance.

but yeah if you go poleaxe then you have slight disadvantage vs above but no true weakness. s'why its dumb when ppl complain about crushers because they are dedicated char's with lots of weaknesses.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Rogue on January 19, 2011, 11:08:28 am
Quote from: RandomDude on January 19, 2011, 05:04:00 am
lol i dont fight in the front lines too much any more its too risky

cans i not have the armour of "no shooty shooty or i smashy smashy"?

But you ARE a priority target, I have to kick you every time I see you.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Noely on January 19, 2011, 11:52:58 am
Quote from: Banok on January 19, 2011, 06:42:44 am
... because they are dedicated char's with lots of weaknesses.

most people who make dedicated chars know what their getting into most of the whine comes from people with balanced builds, who never are better than anyone and therefore qq
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: krampe on January 19, 2011, 12:01:15 pm
Quote from: Banok on January 19, 2011, 06:42:44 am
turtles own 2h sword
2h sword owns crusher
crusher owns turtle

its a rock paper scissors balance.

Some people get kinda fetished with that triumvirate thingy.
Every of those playstyles can own any of the others, just depends on the player.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 19, 2011, 12:33:15 pm
Quote from: Marathon on January 18, 2011, 09:38:14 pm
Ok. I am a polearm, and my next retirement I am going 2h. 2h is not dead, nowhere even close to it, adapt to the changing battlefield and tactics. Just because it isn't OP SPAM SPAM SPAM does not mean it is dead.
I'm afraid quite a lot of the remaining two hand users are spammers. On Monday I watched a group of four, two on each team, frantically trying to spam each other to death at the end of a round.

Quote from: Ghazan on January 19, 2011, 01:24:28 am
Wait did they just nerf the great maul in the latest patch cuz I was playing with it yesterday and it seemed to do fine.

Was making a balanced 2 hander either 18/18 or 21/15, switching between a great maul and bastard sword or war cleaver.  Lure the shielders in with my sword then quick switch and loloverhead smash!!
The pre-patch Great Maul used to have 83 or 85 speed (I think) and it was cut to 80. With the lower wpf everyone has since the patch, that makes it much harder to use. If you've done well with it, you've just been lucky; enemies who know what they're doing will spam you to death the moment you reveal yourself as a lolhammerer.
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 19, 2011, 08:49:39 pm
I do alright x)
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Michael on January 19, 2011, 10:21:36 pm
Quote
there's no way to counter the shield unless you're a Str build with very high PS, so you throw away your sword for an axe or switch to a polearm. The usual two hander build feels like it's no longer viable: pre-patch I could sometimes top the kills table and still did well enough at first after the patch but now the ground has shifted and I generally get more deaths than kills these days



Oh cmon, 2h is still totally easy to play.

Proof

(click to show/hide)


I used the Nodachi because my low level char hadnt the strength for German Greatsword. I had no money for armor neither. First generation low level char.

I deleted this alt because I had no fun once I reached level 20 or something too easy. 


Seriously, you people crush my head. Whine whine whine...................cry cry cry..........................=(

Good 2hs are always on the top of the scoreboard, so hard is it..............
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Ozwan on January 20, 2011, 03:48:09 am
Quote from: Banok on January 19, 2011, 06:42:44 am
turtles own 2h sword
2h sword owns crusher
crusher owns turtle

its a rock paper scissors balance.

I dont find it true to be honest. If I had to make a r-p-s scheme I'd say its

polearms > shields
2h > polearms
shields > 2h

Somewhere inbetween there there are crushthroughs, which are so situational that it cant be really counted as a all-round class. Obviously, 2h can use their short bardiches or short axes vs. shields but its all pretty much weak imitation of polearms. What is to be added is that of course shielders are the only class invulnerable to ranged while maintaining combat effectivenes. C
Title: Re: The Two Handed Swordsman R.I.P.
Post by: Rextard on January 20, 2011, 05:13:46 am
What makes you think shielders are immune to ranged?

    This idea that shields make people immune to ranged is ridiculous. Unless you have a shield out and a shield on your back, you're always vulnerable on the side your shield isn't on. I play 1h+shield with archery as secondary skill. Even with a shield up, if you don't have it at the right height you can get hit in the head, and irrespective of shield you can get hit in the legs.  I've had my round cavalry shield broken by one throwing axe. That's 200 shield hp gone in one ranged attack. And I've been killed by arrows to the back plenty of times while my shield was out. I've also had the same shield destroyed by 2 swings of a 2handed axe. Far as I can tell from personal experience shields don't stop you from getting knocked down either. And there's breakthrough, which is only "situational" if the weapon (read barmace) isn't heirloomed.

Not to mention 2h fighters still have multiple weapon slots like everyone else. Don't want to get caught in your pet peeve situation? Carry something on the side to get you out of it.

    Using a shield means you always have to worry about when it's going to break. Especially if you haven't plowed sp into the skill because as soon as it breaks you're stunned and fatally exposed. Plenty of 2hand fighters have big ass shields just for approaching under ranged fire. Also since shield is a skill and not a weapon proficiency, it's not really a proper description of any particular weapon-archetypal characters.

I think the constant analogizing of this game to rock paper scissors is not doing it any favors, because it simply isn't rock paper scissors. People are restricting themselves to these archetypes, the game isn't. No one said you had to put all your wpf eggs in one basket.