cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 11:44:15 am

Title: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 11:44:15 am
Hitboxes are too small, agility lets players wiggle back and forth to reduce their hitbox to a tiny sliver.

Accuracy is balls, even point blank.

If you hit someone in the head with two throwing axes, in precisely the same spot, they won't die. They just won't. I've only been playing a few days since I started against and I've already seen this two times. The same thing with Jarids - I can't count the times even in the past day that I've filled a plate user up with no fewer than 4 jarids, smacked them a few times with my axe, and still managed to get killed with one swing.

Also, there's no balancing factor for 2handers or polearms. You can say skill, sure, but in the event someone is so agile and so skilled that they can block every melee attack thrown at them you have situations where a naked woman with a rotten stick can fend off an army, or a charging warhorse just by blocking in the right direction.

Ranged weapons do so little damage to plate that there's literally no downside to using a 2hander, which is why we see so many of them.


So, tldr, buff ranged, nerf 2handers/polearms.

Also get rid of or drastically reduce repair costs.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: wayyyyyne on July 21, 2011, 11:59:33 am
Oh, hi there, you must be new to cRPG  8-)
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:01:16 pm
Hi there, are you always so constructive when you post?
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 12:03:02 pm
Door that way, cya :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:03:28 pm
Door that way, see you  :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Hey, fuck you buddy, I didn't say I was quitting.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 12:04:11 pm
Hey, fuck you buddy, I didn't say I was quitting.

Then get what I'm trying to tell you

ding ding :idea:
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:05:32 pm
I get what you're saying, which is why I said fuck "you."
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 12:07:01 pm
You should listen to me, I'm a cool guy.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:08:40 pm
You don't make any sense. =/
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Leshma on July 21, 2011, 12:09:55 pm
Quote
skilled that they can block every melee attack thrown at them you have situations where a naked woman with a rotten stick can fend off an army, or a charging warhorse just by blocking in the right direction.

That's the whole point of this game. Seems to me that you got lost, Mount&Blade isn't the right game for you. Try World of Warcraft  :wink:
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 12:10:05 pm
How many hours did you spend playing cRPG?
Whats your build, what gear are you using?

Because what you're talking about is pure BS.

It seems to me like you want a grind/gear dependant game.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:14:45 pm
Well I'm a level away from my first retirement, so that should give you an idea of how long I've played.

Using an all-around build, couple points in athletics, shield, power throw and power strike and weapon master. I used to play in all plate with a warhammer/shield but repairs quickly made that impossible, so now I'm in mail as that's the highest I can sustain.

No, what I'm talking about is not BS. =/

And Leshma... I'm pretty sure the point of this game is to build up a character, RPG style. Not break physics. People die when they fall from large distances. Shields break when you bash them with axes. People die when you stab them in the face (unless its plated). But somehow its possible for a peasant to block a charging viking's 2handed axe an unlimited amount of times without her stick breaking. Great.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Cheap_Shot on July 21, 2011, 12:22:14 pm
You started out with a very good point about the wiggling and hitboxes, but your argument went downhill fast from there.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Kodiak on July 21, 2011, 12:28:12 pm
Well I'm a level away from my first retirement, so that should give you an idea of how long I've played.
Yes, not long enough.
Using an all-around build, couple points in athletics, shield, power throw and power strike and weapon master.
So you've botched your build...
No, what I'm talking about is not BS. =/
It mostly is
And Leshma... I'm pretty sure the point of this game is to build up a character, RPG style. Not break physics. People die when they fall from large distances. Shields break when you bash them with axes. People die when you stab them in the face (unless its plated). But somehow its possible for a peasant to block a charging viking's 2handed axe an unlimited amount of times without her stick breaking. Great.
Most importantly it's supposed to be a game, not a perfect simulation. If it isn't fun for you, don't play it.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 12:42:33 pm
Contributing to the thread

Hitboxes are too small, agility lets players wiggle back and forth to reduce their hitbox to a tiny sliver.

That is the point of agility builds, dodging, avoiding, fast speed, etc

Accuracy is balls, even point blank.

Accuracy is great, you're not holding a fucking sniper rifle.

If you hit someone in the head with two throwing axes, in precisely the same spot, they won't die. They just won't. I've only been playing a few days since I started against and I've already seen this two times. The same thing with Jarids - I can't count the times even in the past day that I've filled a plate user up with no fewer than 4 jarids, smacked them a few times with my axe, and still managed to get killed with one swing.

Faulty build. Either pick being hard hitting in throwing or being hard hitting in melee, you can have both, but it will take more hits to take a guy down (especially if he's wearing a plate armor).

Also, there's no balancing factor for 2handers or polearms. You can say skill, sure, but in the event someone is so agile and so skilled that they can block every melee attack thrown at them you have situations where a naked woman with a rotten stick can fend off an army, or a charging warhorse just by blocking in the right direction.

The balancing factor is skill. This game is about skill. If you have a problem with a game that is skill dependant, then that's that.


Ranged weapons do so little damage to plate that there's literally no downside to using a 2hander, which is why we see so many of them.

Plate users are slow, pay highass upkeep and have a major reduction in WPF and can't dodge arrows that good. Yes it takes a few more arrows/thrown to kill them, but it's nowhere near as horrible as you describe.

So, tldr, buff ranged, nerf 2handers/polearms.

So, tldr, play more, get more skill and try to form an objective opinion about this matter, not just blatantly call nerfs on anything that kills you. Posters as you are so obvious, you wouldn't even have to tell us you're new to the game.

Also get rid of or drastically reduce repair costs.

Wear cheaper gear.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Yemeth on July 21, 2011, 12:59:02 pm
Contributing to the thread

That is the point of agility builds, dodging, avoiding, fast speed, etc
Accuracy is great, you're not holding a fucking sniper rifle.
You seem to be coming from the perspective of someone that uses plate armor and a 2 handed weapon. I can say this with confidence because that's everyone.
I'm not even talking about agility builds here. Well I was, but anyone can wiggle side to side and fuck the hitboxes.

Quote
Faulty build. Either pick being hard hitting in throwing or being hard hitting in melee, you can have both, but it will take more hits to take a guy down (especially if he's wearing a plate armor).
Why is this a faulty build? I understand that by spreading out my skills I can't do certain things very well or even masterfully. But if I have seven power throw I have 56%+ extra damage on throwing weapons. The base damage of a jarid is 40. If I hit a plate user twice ANYWHERE it should kill them, period. The fact that it doesn't means the armor value on plate is too high. The balancing factor to this is supposed to be shields, moving out of the way, and the difficulty of actually hitting a target at all with throwing weapons.

The accuracy on throwing weapons is TERRIBLE but it is that way by design, and it makes sense. The part where this becomes a problem is in the hitboxes, which you seem to think are dandy or are ignoring because it's not something you disagree with, and that just makes you an argumentative ass that only wants to be right.

And the game isn't about bloody skill or it wouldn't be an RPG. Does the concept of improving certain skills numerically to have an advantage over others escape you? Yes skill comes into play but balance deserves a pretty high fucking seat.

The fact that you think my opinion isn't objective is just ad hominem and a large amount of projection. Instead of trying to refute my points you just insult me. How very gentlemanly.

Being forced to save gold for aeons just to buy equipment you can't wear is retarded by design and it needs to be changed or balanced in some way.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 01:03:02 pm
You seem to be coming from the perspective of someone that uses plate armor and a 2 handed weapon. I can say this with confidence because that's everyone.
I'm not even talking about agility builds here. Well I was, but anyone can wiggle side to side and fuck the hitboxes.

Please point out the 2 hander and plate armor, thank you:

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Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 01:08:47 pm
Why is this a faulty build? I understand that by spreading out my skills I can't do certain things very well or even masterfully. But if I have seven power throw I have 56%+ extra damage on throwing weapons. The base damage of a jarid is 40. If I hit a plate user twice ANYWHERE it should kill them, period. The fact that it doesn't means the armor value on plate is too high. The balancing factor to this is supposed to be shields, moving out of the way, and the difficulty of actually hitting a target at all with throwing weapons.

Aim for the head. Plate armor is supposed to have high armor value. It's PLATE ARMOR. That is a kind of a counter to throwing too.

The accuracy on throwing weapons is TERRIBLE but it is that way by design, and it makes sense. The part where this becomes a problem is in the hitboxes, which you seem to think are dandy or are ignoring because it's not something you disagree with, and that just makes you an argumentative ass that only wants to be right.

I never had problems hitting people on my thrower char. I suggest for a change you admit to yourself you can't aim and actually look for problems in you, not just blaim anything you can blaim as an excuse for your lack of skill.

And the game isn't about bloody skill or it wouldn't be an RPG. Does the concept of improving certain skills numerically to have an advantage over others escape you? Yes skill comes into play but balance deserves a pretty high fucking seat.

The game IS ABOUT BLOODY SKILL. It's Mount & Blade Warband improved by adding a little RPG / customization flavour to it. It's not a fucking MMORPG where everything depends on gear and how many hours you spend playing it. The game is balanced, skill wins, losers cry (you are a shining example).

The fact that you think my opinion isn't objective is just ad hominem and a large amount of projection. Instead of trying to refute my points you just insult me. How very gentlemanly.
Being forced to save gold for aeons just to buy equipment you can't wear is retarded by design and it needs to be changed or balanced in some way.

Just please, go back to whatever grind-ass mmorpg you came from.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 21, 2011, 01:13:46 pm
4 jarids seems fine against plate. Plate users are supposed to absorb alot of damage and deal alot of dmg to be honest. They are slow, so practice blocking and footwork and you too can take out plate.

also, did you just say this game isn't supposed to be about skill? I guess you actually might be playing the wrong game. Leveling gives you an advantage, it doesn't mean you dominate. Did you play alot of WoW?

also also:
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Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Cheap_Shot on July 21, 2011, 02:52:20 pm
/\/\/\ haha efb I guess.

OP, your only real point was about the wiggle dodge. There is some weird crap where flailing around spastically while blocking and wiggling around makes your hitbox near impossible to find. I've been spending a lot of rounds frustrated that I can't hit someone walking directly towards me because it looks like they're having a seizure while running at me.


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Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Spawny on July 21, 2011, 02:59:05 pm
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Looks about right.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 04:06:26 pm
/\/\/\ haha efb I guess.

OP, your only real point was about the wiggle dodge. There is some weird crap where flailing around spastically while blocking and wiggling around makes your hitbox near impossible to find. I've been spending a lot of rounds frustrated that I can't hit someone walking directly towards me because it looks like they're having a seizure while running at me.


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brilliant
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Remy on July 21, 2011, 04:30:31 pm
The "wiggle effect" applies to all ranged weapons.

Throwing weapons, bows and crossbows all have trouble with the spastic infantry.

Of course, if you aim well you can deal with such tactics, even if they naturally make hitting harder.

Lovely drawing as well.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: ReLeNtLeSs on July 21, 2011, 05:15:52 pm
You started out with a very good point about the wiggling and hitboxes, but your argument went downhill fast from there.

And dude knows a thing or two about throwing. I'm pretty sure cheap_shot would go through withdrawals if throwing was removed.

Can we at least give the guy a break? He is brand new to the game and is only stating his opinion. This is a good thing. Let's not scare away the newbies by being so hostile.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Nasturtium on July 21, 2011, 06:50:03 pm
+1 there.

 Yemeth, to understand the animosity leveled at you, you need to understand the recent history of crpg, the patches, the changes, and the heated debate therein.

 Since this is a mod, and the developers are active in the community and listen to them, there is intense and mean spirited lobbying going on in regards to game balancing issues. Don't take it personal if you are getting shouted down, just understand that many people have made the same arguments over and over again and are tired of hearing them, cheers.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 21, 2011, 07:12:57 pm
hehe I took 2 of his axes to my face (55 head armor, 5 IF) and survived with a tiny tick of health to be finished off later by a melee weapon glancing off me. xD
glad I went all out on my helmet that round, lol.
Title: Re: Throwing, and why it's bad
Post by: Seawied on July 21, 2011, 08:48:34 pm
 :lol: Your comics are always awesome cheapshot.




Anyway, can we stop trolling the guy for a bit? I disagree completely with his original post, but its no reason to be  a dick to  him.



to the OP: Throwing is different from other ranged options. Its intended to be used at close range, and is a very high-risk yet high-reward change. At the moment, it is currently well balanced. Its not unusual for a dedicated thrower to drop an opponent in 1 to 2 hits regularly.
(click to show/hide)

Throwing also is a fantastic shield breaker, making life easier for your archer buddies, and some throwing weapons (namely the lance and heavy axes) are decent melee weapons as well.