cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spartan793 on July 17, 2011, 08:44:55 pm

Title: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Spartan793 on July 17, 2011, 08:44:55 pm
Now I cans ee where it might come in handy meaning avoiding every player runnign around in full plate.

But how can it be fair that wearing some pretty basic equipment im being forced to shell out around 400-600 gp per game? Now to say that there are only about 5 clicks a game im having to play on a x2 multiplayer to even stand a chance of keeping th money i have, never midn making more.

And even the concept seems kinda messed up to me, those guys in the more heavy armour fighting for their team and the multipliers, generally doign a better job at gaining the than the random naked people are having to pay more. So i'd have a mroe productive time sat naked charging in doing sod all to aid the battle. Seems kinda wrong to me

Is there somthign im missing or is that all there is to it, because if so then i seriously dont see how im supposed to collect a decent amount of money
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Miranda on July 18, 2011, 12:52:44 am
Now I cans ee where it might come in handy meaning avoiding every player runnign around in full plate.

But how can it be fair that wearing some pretty basic equipment im being forced to shell out around 400-600 gp per game? Now to say that there are only about 5 clicks a game im having to play on a x2 multiplayer to even stand a chance of keeping th money i have, never midn making more.

And even the concept seems kinda messed up to me, those guys in the more heavy armour fighting for their team and the multipliers, generally doign a better job at gaining the than the random naked people are having to pay more. So i'd have a mroe productive time sat naked charging in doing sod all to aid the battle. Seems kinda wrong to me

Is there somthign im missing or is that all there is to it, because if so then i seriously dont see how im supposed to collect a decent amount of money

I feel your pain. Im not a wealthy player (around 30K Gold, 25K atm) and i wear 28K worth of gear.

Norman Helmet -    992 Gold
Light Kuyak    - 6.755 Gold
Mail Mittens    - 1.376 Gold
Mail Boots      -  2.998 Gold
Danish GS      - 15.922 Gold
-----------------------------------
Total Equip.      28.054 Gold

Thats a average ammount of gear, nothing fancy (except for the Danish Greatsword).
I realy am struggeling to save up any gold, overall tonight im down like 5G and at a certain point i was even down 10K  :shock:. So i had to do some siege to get me back up to 25K (and i realy dislike sieges lol)

The people that say: "Upkeep is perfect now" are players that are very wealthy and can affort to loose some (or atleast thats what i think) but for an average player like me its realy a pain in the ass.

A few days ago i was curious how a totally new player would manage, so i made an alt with a 1H and a shield with realy crappy gear and to my supprize i cant even earn any money for that one.

Maybe im just unlucky but it dont seem right to me.
The old upkeep was better imo.

My two cents.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 18, 2011, 01:01:23 am
The upkeep is perfect for me.

But then again I wear anywhere from <1,000 gold worth of gear to <20,000 gold worth of gear.

While the upkeep itself may be flawed and limiting you in what you want to wear you don't need that much gear to be good, I've had alot of fun recently running around with hide boots red tunic and  a scythe and still killing very easily and easily being in the top of the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Vieuxcrotter on July 18, 2011, 01:08:21 am
I feel your pain. Im not a wealthy player (around 30K Gold, 25K atm) and i wear 28K worth of gear.

Norman Helmet -    992 Gold
Light Kuyak    - 6.755 Gold
Mail Mittens    - 1.376 Gold
Mail Boots      -  2.998 Gold
Danish GS      - 15.922 Gold
-----------------------------------
Total Equip.      28.054 Gold

Thats a average ammount of gear, nothing fancy (except for the Danish Greatsword).
I realy am struggeling to save up any gold, overall tonight im down like 5G and at a certain point i was even down 10K  :shock:. So i had to do some siege to get me back up to 25K (and i realy dislike sieges lol)

The people that say: "Upkeep is perfect now" are players that are very wealthy and can affort to loose some (or atleast thats what i think) but for an average player like me its realy a pain in the ass.

A few days ago i was curious how a totally new player would manage, so i made an alt with a 1H and a shield with realy crappy gear and to my supprize i cant even earn any money for that one.

Maybe im just unlucky but it dont seem right to me.
The old upkeep was better imo.

My two cents.

You are right, im running with peasant gear and only my buckler and a langes messer and one of those two items break almost every round so its impossible i can make any profit.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Miranda on July 18, 2011, 01:14:22 am
The upkeep is perfect for me.

But then again I wear anywhere from <1,000 gold worth of gear to <20,000 gold worth of gear.

While the upkeep itself may be flawed and limiting you in what you want to wear you don't need that much gear to be good, I've had alot of fun recently running around with hide boots red tunic and  a scythe and still killing very easily and easily being in the top of the scoreboard.

I agree that the armor isn't the most important thing in the game, it doesnt effect a players skill, but...
Why bother with all the armor skins if only a very select group can actually wear them and sustain a certain gold buffer. Heck, i even gave up on cav due to upkeep, so i respecced so i could wear some nice looking (but still average) gear and now i cant even do that lol.
Its not the end of the world, and i will still enjoy CRPG but... i must say it has taken some (not much, a thiny bit) joy away from the overall experience.

Before the patch, sure you saw a few tincans, but it wasnt like everyone was running around in them. So if it was balanced then, why increase the upkeep?

I guess i will be selling my 1x loomed German Poleaxe in the future due to this.

If it aint broken, then dont fix it.  :P

You are right, im running with peasant gear and only my buckler and a langes messer and one of those two items break almost every round so its impossible i can make any profit.

Lol, that alt that i spoke of has a Langes Messer aswell and that weapon totally bankrupt me aswell (on the alt).
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Barbas on July 18, 2011, 01:52:06 am
you don't need that much gear to be good

That's true; if you're going for a more speedy balanced or Agi-heavy build, in fact, the weight penalty from heavy armors is its own detriment and you wouldn't want to use them even if there were no upkeep.

Upkeep just means that some particular builds, the Str-heavy, high-IF, slow but able to take a lot of abuse type builds, are financially infeasible unless you have enough gold stored up that you can consistently lose it from repairs.

This is fairly silly given that powerful-but-slow heavily armored builds aren't inherently better than speedier, lighter builds.  Even a full set of plate armor provides much less protection than many people think, and being so slow makes you highly vulnerable to attacks by faster players - which will be nearly everyone. 

A smarter system would make it expensive to wear the 'best gear' for any type of build - e.g. equipment with a relatively high armor to weight ratio would be expensive to wear, not just those items with the highest armor period.  In other words, if you want to wear the very best armor there is below a weight of 15, that armor should be quite expensive to keep up - or you would have to opt for something that provided less protection.  But.. eh, that probably won't happen.  People are simple-minded and get all worked up if they have to hit someone too many times to kill them, even if that person is really slow.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 18, 2011, 01:58:41 am
^ Pretty much why would a ninja be able to play his prefered style but a plater couldnt?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 18, 2011, 02:10:17 am
Well, technically speaking the upkeep was broken, chadz added upkeep with intent to cut down on the plate population, and it worked for a few weeks, until everyone stockpiled hundreds of thousands of gold to millions of gold that could make them last in Plate for fucking forever.

So I guess chadz is actually trying to fix it by actually making Plate impossible to ALWAYS use and only being able to use it in short bursts as it was intended.


Also, there's a big difference between someone who wants to play Ninja and someone who wants to "crutch on his pl-" err I mean be a "plater".

Reason being that being a ninja doesn't make you take 30 hits and make everyone whiff on you as soon as you press W and run a in figure 8 motion.

 
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 18, 2011, 02:15:15 am
Fuck off and get off your high horse Patricia, armor doesnt make you instantly invicible and those who use it dont always crutch on it.
I could say you're crutching on the fact that you use no armor to spin your longsword as it was nothing and outspam the living shit out of everyone without blocking since you hit too fast, but I dont.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 18, 2011, 02:17:41 am
Armor doesn't make you invincible but it makes you take more hits than necessary.

It's just so fun to get hit once and die but you have to hit everyone else 8 times because they're all crutching on their plate and immense infinite goldpit.

Also, spin my longsword? I'm not sure what you mean by that, if you mean the lolstabspin the fucking stab is worthless and I try my best to never use it.

Also, I haven't actually used this build in a long time and I can safely say that my blocking skills are several notches higher than some of the best players in here, besides I use a scythe right now and still kill people, if that's crutching I don't know what to tell you and your plate.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Mithus on July 18, 2011, 02:24:24 am
instead of increase upkeep to 7.5%.... 50% more, they would increase weight penality.

This cost increase, just limit diversity for everyone..  less fun.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 18, 2011, 02:25:36 am
I am not using my plate cant afford, I do use a one handed sword and no shield, thats about as challenging as it gets.
And you seem to think that plate=auto crutch, thats bullshit, slows you do a lot, more challenge.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Miranda on July 18, 2011, 03:06:40 am
*Hypocrite mode on*

I just sold my Loomed wep. so gold isnt a issue anymore.
Upkeep is perfect now.  :wink: :lol:

*Hypocrite mode off*

Nah just kidding. I still feel foor the poor and new ones playing C-RPG.  :wink:
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 18, 2011, 03:10:31 am
I am not using my plate cant afford, I do use a one handed sword and no shield, thats about as challenging as it gets.
And you seem to think that plate=auto crutch, thats bullshit, slows you do a lot, more challenge.

It's not like anything is forcing you to use plate, everyone is playing with the same upkeep system as you do and not everyone is complaining so SURELY you must be the problem.

Unless you're using some Beta Upkeepsystemus™ that no one else is using yet that is discriminating only you.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gumdrawp on July 18, 2011, 03:13:56 am
I average a pretty decent multiplier and I wear extremely expensive armor almost all the time currently. I dont really lose all that much with the new patch. maybe 50-100k loss per generation which is offset by selling loom points every few gens to the people that wear light armor.

While i personally wish upkeep were less, if it was much lower i would be able to wear my current set (Lordly black armor, Lordly Plate mittens, Cased greaves, and a Litchina Helm + whatever polearm i want to use and a long spear if needed.) 100% of the time and not lose money at all. Which would cause kesh and the archers to whine even more about every patch.

While the current XP and upkeep systems arent quite as noob friendly i think the upkeep system does its job of minimizing inflation pretty nicely. After the deflation that strategus is bound to cause i think that prices will become a lot more stable for heirlooms which is probably better in the long run for noobs.


TL:DR; upkeep is probably fine so long as the total amount of gold in circulation isn't decreasing, if it kept on inflating like I assume it was it would be even harder for noobs to catch up in the future than it is now.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 18, 2011, 03:30:46 am
It's not like anything is forcing you to use plate, everyone is playing with the same upkeep system as you do and not everyone is complaining so SURELY you must be the problem.

Unless you're using some Beta Upkeepsystemus™ that no one else is using yet that is discriminating only you.

The upkeep is preventing me from using my plate most of the time and I rather enjoy using my armor, its my style, and I cant afford it, unlike a fucking ninja or you.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: InTheFade on July 18, 2011, 06:39:36 am
I have a bunch of different sets of gear that I run around in depending on the situation. If my team is doing crap, I have a cheap 14k Bananaman set (Magyar helmet + cav robe) that doesn't really make or lose money if I'm stuck on x1. If the teams are well balanced, I use my 24k Samurai set and when I'm riding x5 for an hour, I switch to my 45k Bender outfit (Tangancha helm + Rus scale). For all of these, the most expensive weapon I use is a katana, but I usually use a miaodao, or a great axe if I'm up against a bunch of shielders.

By doing this, I've probably made 15k in the last week (could be more, I don't really keep track). Plate is a waste of time for me, way too much of a speed penalty to justify the extra armor. And I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to target platers when I play. It counts for nothing if you can't block an axe to the head 5 times  8-)
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Baggy on July 18, 2011, 07:07:54 am
I have a bunch of different sets of gear that I run around in depending on the situation. If my team is doing crap, I have a cheap 14k Bananaman set (Magyar helmet + cav robe) that doesn't really make or lose money if I'm stuck on x1. If the teams are well balanced, I use my 24k Samurai set and when I'm riding x5 for an hour, I switch to my 45k Bender outfit (Tangancha helm + Rus scale). For all of these, the most expensive weapon I use is a katana, but I usually use a miaodao, or a great axe if I'm up against a bunch of shielders.

By doing this, I've probably made 15k in the last week (could be more, I don't really keep track). Plate is a waste of time for me, way too much of a speed penalty to justify the extra armor. And I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to target platers when I play. It counts for nothing if you can't block an axe to the head 5 times  8-)
I just use 35k worth of gear all the time and make like 8k a day.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Vibe on July 18, 2011, 08:35:31 am
Made like 30k in a few days using 41k worth of gear.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 18, 2011, 02:43:17 pm
The upkeep is preventing me from using my plate most of the time and I rather enjoy using my armor, its my style, and I cant afford it, unlike a fucking ninja or you.

I wouldn't actually mind you using plate if it was purely aesthetic, turns out it's not and plate gives you a clear advantage over anyone else.

"Ohh, I'm not crutching on plate armor, OH FUCK I CAN'T USE MY PLATE ARMOR? GOOD GOD UPKEEP IS SHIT AND IS PREVENTING ME FROM CRUTCHING BECAUSE I'M  A NOBODY NOT WORTH SHIT THAT CAN'T DO JACK OUTSIDE HIS ARMOR"

-BobtheHerp
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 18, 2011, 03:31:20 pm
im not sure what crutching is, but tbh, most people in plate are relatively easy to kill since they are slow. The ones that are good in plate are really good players because they don't need speed to beat you, just skill.
the weight balances the armor gain.

ps: i really only wear heavy stuff so i can survive more random arrows flying around
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Keshian on July 18, 2011, 03:36:59 pm
im not sure what crutching is, but tbh, most people in plate are relatively easy to kill since they are slow. The ones that are good in plate are really good players because they don't need speed to beat you, just skill.
the weight balances the armor gain.

I guess you haven't fought a bec using tin can?  Basically the system doesn't allow you to swing twice without having to block in-between unless you have better footwork,  Exchanging blow for blow and block for block, 2 equally skilled players fight, the tincan can take 6-7 hits from my sword, he can 1-2 shot me with his bec.  Who will win 80% of the time in an equal skill fight? - tin can.  I actually agree this should be the case, you are paying a lot of money to do so (though I still see plenty of people constantly in tin can suit, must sell their heirlooms).  And I agree that it should be enormously expensive as it is a huge privilege to be armored like the richest knight in the land instead of a poor peasant.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 18, 2011, 03:39:43 pm
I guess you haven't fought a bec using tin can?  Basically the system doesn't allow you to swing twice without having to block in-between unless you have better footwork,  Exchanging blow for blow and block for block, 2 equally skilled players fight, the tincan can take 6-7 hits from my sword, he can 1-2 shot me with his bec.  Who will win 80% of the time in an equal skill fight? - tin can.  I actually agree this should be the case, you are paying a lot of money to do so (though I still see plenty of people constantly in tin can suit, must sell their heirlooms).  And I agree that it should be enormously expensive as it is a huge privilege to be armored like the richest knight in the land instead of a poor peasant.

really? i take out plenty of bec tincans with my danish great, whats the range on the bec? usually i use footwork to avoid their swings and stab em.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Baggy on July 18, 2011, 03:48:38 pm
really? i take out plenty of bec tincans with my danish great, whats the range on the bec? usually i use footwork to avoid their swings and stab em.
Your EU, in NA no one had ATH and can outrange the really short bec.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Spartan793 on July 18, 2011, 04:13:25 pm
What im getting at is that plate armour and other things I can udnerstand, should stop you from earning as much gold to stop the amount of platers, but you shouldn't have to be paying to the right to use the armour you have already spent plenty of time earning.

One thing that does irritate me is that im gaining NO money at all, in fact losing a fair amount playing in amour and weapons I'd porbably expect to be wearing less than a week into SP.... It makes no sence.

Surly just increasing the prices and weights will punish platers if theres really far to many of them... Why make the rest of us suffer?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 18, 2011, 04:24:29 pm
^ Pretty much why would a ninja be able to play his prefered style but a plater couldnt?


Ninja and samurai are forking out tons of cash as well so it's not just you plated-platingtons, just wearing my daisho (to mark me as a samurai coz Im so weaboo and ghey) is making me pay ridiculous amounts of cash, katana costs me 663 and it's not even close to being able to compare stats-wise vs a heavy bastard sword or longsword.

So, can I play my prefered style? Fuck yea, but it's costing me an arm and a leg and I'm not even wearing heavy armor or using decent weapons so at least you're paying an arm and a leg for decent equipment.... I'm just paying for 'exotic' gear that is sub-par to any europeon equivalent that would cost less to upkeep.

IMO upkeep is fine I guess, it's a little too random for me especially when you start a new character and you're forking out 460 bucks for a lamellar vest 3 times in a row on a x1 (low-medium tier armor)

Only reason I'm posting is coz, yeah platers pay more, but their equip is decent and actually worth the cost, I'm forking out 663 repairs for a daggar that bounces off of anyone not in cloth, 968 for a shorter, slower, non stabby great sword, 500+ for my wakizashi, which is one of the most useless 1 handers in the game.

in conclusion, upkeep means, you pay to look bad ass. Deal with it.



I like Spartan's idea of balancing heavy armor's advantages and disadvantages and making heavy armor more sustainable on the battle (but not an instant win button obviously), but it seems next to impossible to balance something like that. (which is why upkeep appeared)

Just my dumb ass opinion, just speaking my mind.


Again, to Bobthehero, ninja and samurai are paying shit tons for crap equip, at least your equip is decent and you can pretend that the cost is worth it...........
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Kenji on July 18, 2011, 04:32:48 pm
And even the concept seems kinda messed up to me, those guys in the more heavy armour fighting for their team and the multipliers, generally doign a better job at gaining the than the random naked people are having to pay more.
Well, you can ask around, I'm such a useless Tincan that people don't straight out insult me using words of homosexuality anymore, they just suggest me to wear black armor :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
+1

I thought you used a Nodachi, though?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gumdrawp on July 18, 2011, 04:37:54 pm
I guess you haven't fought a bec using tin can?  Basically the system doesn't allow you to swing twice without having to block in-between unless you have better footwork,  Exchanging blow for blow and block for block, 2 equally skilled players fight, the tincan can take 6-7 hits from my sword, he can 1-2 shot me with his bec.  Who will win 80% of the time in an equal skill fight? - tin can.  I actually agree this should be the case, you are paying a lot of money to do so (though I still see plenty of people constantly in tin can suit, must sell their heirlooms).  And I agree that it should be enormously expensive as it is a huge privilege to be armored like the richest knight in the land instead of a poor peasant.

Noone in plate will take more than 4 hits to kill with a good MW 2 hander given you have enough sense to try to have a speed modifier on your attacks and a moderate amount of PS.

Honestly if people are so upset by the fact that plate lets you live longer in tradeoff for movement and swing speed you should just respec now and roll around in a goretooth set. I think you complain about the wrong things sometimes though; what needs a nerf more than plate armor are crossbows and the bec itself. Plate armor has enough drawbacks to warrant the extra survivability you gain by wearing it.

On a side note I could stand to see the upkeep reduced a bit but I would be worried about the total amount of gold in CRPG, you dont really want the number to grow to retarded amounts and everything get super inflated.

EDIT: Also the system does let you swing twice in a row without blocking if you castor swing people. I guess technically that would fall under footwork though
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Ming on July 18, 2011, 04:43:51 pm
Now I cans ee where it might come in handy meaning avoiding every player runnign around in full plate.

But how can it be fair that wearing some pretty basic equipment im being forced to shell out around 400-600 gp per game? Now to say that there are only about 5 clicks a game im having to play on a x2 multiplayer to even stand a chance of keeping th money i have, never midn making more.

And even the concept seems kinda messed up to me, those guys in the more heavy armour fighting for their team and the multipliers, generally doign a better job at gaining the than the random naked people are having to pay more. So i'd have a mroe productive time sat naked charging in doing sod all to aid the battle. Seems kinda wrong to me

Is there somthign im missing or is that all there is to it, because if so then i seriously dont see how im supposed to collect a decent amount of money

I use 30k cost equipments and  made 25k in 3 days.

Tip: if u keep losing and constant x1 ofc ur gonna lose some money. STOP WHINING AND START KILLING
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gorath on July 18, 2011, 04:44:54 pm
Noone in plate will take more than 4 hits to kill with a good MW 2 hander

Not everyone has a damn MW weapon you know.  Fighting you, tydeus and goretooth last night you each took around 5-7 thrusts from full hp for me to kill with my lawlpike (32p) on Braxxus.

Balancing around MW's is silly imo since we're not going to be using them in strat.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: B3RS3RK on July 18, 2011, 04:45:22 pm
Solution: Increase the weight penalty further, but make Plates easier to sustain.

This Way only the real Plate lovers who wear them for Style will wear them.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gumdrawp on July 18, 2011, 04:47:38 pm
Not everyone has a damn MW weapon you know.  Fighting you, tydeus and goretooth last night you each took around 5-7 thrusts from full hp for me to kill with my lawlpike (32p) on Braxxus.

Balancing around MW's is silly imo since we're not going to be using them in strat.

I was under the impression in the new strat well be able to forge them in towns because of the chadztext. Also its going to be the same situation whether or not you balance around masterworks, I assume that if you balance around MW weapons you would be assuming the enemy would be wearing lordly armor as well.

Solution: Increase the weight penalty further, but make Plates easier to sustain.

This Way only the real Plate lovers who wear them for Style will wear them.

Yeah, because moving like i have -2 athletics and swinging like ive got 50 less wpf than I actually have isn't enough of a drawback on top of the fact that my set already costs more than most cav setups(assuming you dont use a armored horse.)

The actual risk/reward of wearing plate is fairly even right now in my opinion. The bigger issue is people aren't making money with light armor sets, maybe something like Tydeus equipment insurance suggestion should be considered. I think having a line drawn somewhere in the medium armor range with a low-mid tier weapon (20k-25k or so loadout) should be free to upkeep basically; BUT you recieve less actual gold per tick.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gorath on July 18, 2011, 04:52:32 pm
I assume that if you balance around MW weapons you would be assuming the enemy would be wearing lordly armor as well.

I still say this is silly because why are we balancing around the idea that you have to spend 1000's of hours before you're on-par with where the game is balanced anymore?

Not everyone took advantage of the broken retirement system pre-fix in order to get 30 heirloom points or more.  Then there's the flat out new players.  None of us have lordly plate/black armor and MW bec's.   :?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gumdrawp on July 18, 2011, 04:58:53 pm
I still say this is silly because why are we balancing around the idea that you have to spend 1000's of hours before you're on-par with where the game is balanced anymore?

Not everyone took advantage of the broken retirement system pre-fix in order to get 30 heirloom points or more.  Then there's the flat out new players.  None of us have lordly plate/black armor and MW bec's.   :?

I started playing like 2 weeks ago and I currently have lordly plate mittens, lordly black armor and a MW poleaxe. Granted Tydeus helped me out by lending me a few hundred thousand when I started you can make a decent amount of money if you're good at playing the market and sell your loom points then buy what you want.

Regardless of how hard it is to obtain heirlooms I still dont see how balancing around normal armor and weapons is different from balancing around +3 weapons and +3 armors.

Also whens the last time you've heard of a game balancing around "noobs" and not the "competitive scene".
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Gorath on July 18, 2011, 05:10:44 pm
Meh, the problem would be solved if chadz would just let us buy heirloom points from the dev team for RL cash.  That way the no-life grinders get their gear for free, and we with jobs can just buy the shit.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Lamix on July 18, 2011, 05:26:42 pm
problem would be solved by removing upkeep, and removing the top tier stuff, problem sorted.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Ming on July 18, 2011, 05:29:23 pm
problem would be solved by removing upkeep, and removing the top tier stuff, problem sorted.

Nothing personal, but...it is the worse solution ive seen on the forum so far.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Lamix on July 18, 2011, 05:34:22 pm
Ok maybe that was a slight over exaggeration but thats the way that its heading for anyone that likes to play just casual, the upkeep system as it stands is too random, some people think its great cos they get lucky other think it terrible because they can't play with anything without losing money, both are right and wrong its too random.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on July 18, 2011, 05:59:49 pm
I was, and am against upkeep since the patch came out for half a year ago...

I am sure though, that other ways of regulating armor/weapon speed have been tested, and the current upkeep system is the only working solution so far.

In theory, i would rather see some sort of stamina, or an extreme speed penalty for plate users.

Or may be, Strength is supposed to be "divided" between gear, so if you have 21 Strength, and use a Poleaxe with 17 difficulty, you would only have 4 Strength left for armor.

What about a higher chance for being knocked down on the ground by a blunt weapon, depending on the total gear weight?.. So it would be more of a rock/paper/scissors thing, instead of "if it is expensive - its the best".

Actually, anything but upkeep :) Even removing the top tier armors would work better for me, i have only used plate armor for a single week since august 2010 anyways...

All-in-all, I don't really care anymore, i can always sell an item on the market, and fuel my gear for at least a week :)
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: _JoG_ on July 18, 2011, 06:38:36 pm
Introducing upkeep system was the reason why lots of skilled veterans who stopped playing crpg due to everyone being a tincan have started playing it again. However, at this time the upkeep was way too low, I was able to hang out in the stuff worth ~52k (transitional armor, hounskull bascinet, wisby ganutlets, longsword, ...) while maintaining zero balance (well, I could lose 5k in a week... I could easily grind that amount of money on a siege server in half an hour). I believe the upkeep was slightly increased in one of the patches (well, at least I switched to using less expensive gear), yet it remained pretty low. I was able to grind about 200k gold while using 35k "battle equip" (brigandine, open sallet, longsword, etc.) Do you think it's normal? Personally, I don't think so, especially considering that the number of plate/heavy horse users increased every week.
That's why I liked another increase in upkeep. Frankly speaking, I don't understand people whining about they have to use crappy gear, since after the last upkeep patch I managed to grind ~100k gold using my pre-patch "siege/grind set" worth ~23k (haubergeon, kettle helmet, mail mittens, leather boots, MS longsword, plain board shield). So, probably the whiners are either not quite fair or doing something wrong :).
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 18, 2011, 08:19:06 pm
I wouldn't actually mind you using plate if it was purely aesthetic, turns out it's not and plate gives you a clear advantage over anyone else.

"Ohh, I'm not crutching on plate armor, OH FUCK I CAN'T USE MY PLATE ARMOR? GOOD GOD UPKEEP IS SHIT AND IS PREVENTING ME FROM CRUTCHING BECAUSE I'M  A NOBODY NOT WORTH SHIT THAT CAN'T DO JACK OUTSIDE HIS ARMOR"

-BobtheHerp

I am toppign the boards in a Gambeson and long espada eslanova
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Demeter on July 19, 2011, 04:13:21 am
Considering I am only level 20 and this is my first week playing I cant seem to make anything.  I am an archer in given to me beginer clothes and I have the Tartar Bow with Bodkin arrows @15 and after I kid you not.. 30 battles my money hasnt went up or down.   I did siege for 3 hours last night and battle for 3 hours today and I am still at 7k.   Now I did make money to get what I have now but, it seems I have either hit the cap or just very unlucky.  I checked the last 10 maps.  And I paid every upkeep on the arrows in 4 out of the 5 rotation and some I did the bow as well.

Now I know people that have been playing for a while have 200k and all there the gear they want and so on and its not a problem for them for to run around but, to bring in new people with this is rough.  Now I dont expect to be in full plate by now but, I do expect to be able to buy something better then the starter clothes after 30. And I know I put out for the bow and arrows... but, like I said I cant win or lose anything at this point.  If I put out 4k on stuff I could very well go broke.

Its harsh to begin with.   Not so harsh after you have been around for a while I figure.

But, just my thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on July 19, 2011, 06:00:15 pm
I don't believe that plate is an overwhelming advantage that cannot be overcome but there's a reason why before the big january patch, most experienced players rolled plate. Considering the fact that average damage has if anything gone down, due to the lack of many players higher than level 31, and the fact that armor heirlooms have been buffed, I fail to see how the situation has changed other than upkeep. Certainly, one can make an argument that upkeep balances it, but I find it hard to believe any argument that heavy and particularly heirloomed armor is balanced compared to light armor without upkeep. The advantages in mobility are useful and more importantly to me, fun, but they are mostly negated by certain factors. Water. The difference in speed traveling through water is so miniscule that there's no logical reason to have ath if every fight took place in water. Hills. Unless you're traveling at certain angles, slopes can once again reduce the difference in speed between high ath players and low ath players. Rain. It does the same, albeit to a much lesser extent.

So, we have situations where having movement speed as your advantage can be partially negated. Where is the advantage of heavy armor negated? I cannot think of a situation where taking less hits to be killed is a disadvantage. The disadvantages of armor, having less speed, certainly makes a rather significant difference. However, my personal opinion is that it makes less of a difference than taking more hits to kill provides. No matter the skill, it is relatively easy to take the occasional hit. Teamhits can be awkward to block, if there are enough ranged it can be awkward to dodge, and if you don't notice a ranged character well, you won't be dodging. The difference between plate and agi is that those occasional hits are much more threatening to the agi build. When I wear light armor, teamhits make me rage a lot more than when I wear heavy armor, due to the fact that they take off a very significant amount of health.

Oh, one thing to mention. Can people stop bringing up the fact that they topped the scoreboards as a certain build or using certain equipment? If you play enough and switch gears enough, you're bound to top the scoreboards with just about every build. Hell, topping the scoreboards isn't even hard. Score means NOTHING because it doesn't take into account who you fought and beat, and whether or not you actually contributed anything to the team. If you are killing the same six level 1-5 characters every round you'll end up with 24 kills at a minimum. I don't really feel like killing 6 peasants contributes much, but hey, the scoreboard certainly thinks it does.

On another note, I'd like to mention that although my current setup is rather light, I've also gone through quite a few gens where I wore quite heavy armor. Including a gen where I wore triple heirloomed Rus Scale with Lordly Hourglass Gauntlets. I don't wear heavy armor like that nowadays mostly because it bored me. I don't enjoy moving slowly as much as moving quickly and I don't really enjoy killing people because they glanced on me, or getting hit 3 times and then winning because they couldn't take the same 3 hits. It just doesn't do it for me.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 19, 2011, 06:17:14 pm
Hey, I have an idea, why not counter plate as it was countered in historically (to retain realistic armor protection, but keep it balanced)?

FIREARMS.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: rustyspoon on July 19, 2011, 06:36:46 pm
Originally, I understood why upkeep was implemented. At this point though, do we really need it?

Since Strategus is back, why can't we have that for the super-serious playing and have plain old CRPG for fun?

It seems that every patch lately has reduced the fun factor a bit. I don't give a shit if I have to fight 100 plated chargers with fully armored riders carrying steel shields. I don't care if someone has 10,000 heirlooms. I'm still going to use the same gear I've always used.

Can't we just get back to what made this game fun in the first place? Buying new shit and hitting people with swords?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Tzar on July 19, 2011, 07:44:36 pm
Originally, I understood why upkeep was implemented. At this point though, do we really need it?

Since Strategus is back, why can't we have that for the super-serious playing and have plain old CRPG for fun?

It seems that every patch lately has reduced the fun factor a bit. I don't give a shit if I have to fight 100 plated chargers with fully armored riders carrying steel shields. I don't care if someone has 10,000 heirlooms. I'm still going to use the same gear I've always used.

Can't we just get back to what made this game fun in the first place? Buying new shit and hitting people with swords?

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Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Overdriven on July 19, 2011, 09:20:00 pm
Agreed with above!

At least reduce upkeep alot. If anything it should be less than what it used to be, not more. I don't care if stuff has a lower chance of breaking. It's still bloody expensive.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 19, 2011, 11:16:59 pm
I am toppign the boards in a Gambeson and long espada eslanova

Except I never actually saw you top the scoreboard and you're pretty easy to kill.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 19, 2011, 11:48:01 pm
Never saw your face either ;)
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Tzar on July 20, 2011, 12:02:12 am
Except I never actually saw you top the scoreboard and you're pretty easy to kill.

True hes terrible cant argue with that.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 20, 2011, 12:03:20 am
NA player, GTFO Yuropean :)
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 20, 2011, 12:40:57 am
I'll vouch for bob, he is damn good.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on July 20, 2011, 12:48:43 am
I'll vouch for Patricia. He's damn good.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 20, 2011, 12:50:25 am
Never saw your face either ;)


And yet I fought you a shitload of times in duel, I'm one of those dudes you really hated for going into your blindspot and slaughtering you.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 20, 2011, 12:50:55 am
Whats your name?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 20, 2011, 12:51:42 am
This thread is not about ePeen.

Seriously, shut up about this stuff and bring it to the General Talk where it usually belongs... yeesh...
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 20, 2011, 12:53:15 am
Bah upkeep is bs and plate armor does not provide enough bonus for its cost.


Happy, Mr.Spy.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 20, 2011, 12:55:20 am
This thread is not about ePeen.

Seriously, shut up about this stuff and bring it to the General Talk where it usually belongs... yeesh...

Bitch please, I've got my humongous ego and epeen to uphold.

Also I'm sure you know my name Bob, unless I fought you under a different name which I probably did but I swear I dueled both you and Kalam a fuckload back in the days I actually played ingame as Patricia, Kalam hated me for my mind powers and you hated me for getting in your blind spot.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 20, 2011, 12:56:27 am
Shall we get back to Epeening then?
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 20, 2011, 01:00:05 am
Let's Epeen all day, Bob.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Bobthehero on July 20, 2011, 01:06:58 am
Oh not today, I am le tired and only killed 2000 player with my bare fist and -1 strength
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Patricia on July 20, 2011, 01:11:18 am
Oh u.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Lichen on July 20, 2011, 04:20:33 am
Ideas (not saying they are great): Have it so stuff can never break to the point of not being usable so people can turn off auto repair and just suffer with badly battered gear and much reduced stats. Or when you retire you can choose to heirloom something OR put the point into 'repair or blacksmith or whatever' but the function would be to reduce your upkeep by a certain amount. Or maybe a character skill where the more you put in to it the lower your repairs. Or when you kill a guy in game wearing one or more of the same armor pieces you are repair cost for that item(s) are disabled to simulate scavenging equipment from the fallen. Though that last one might be ridiculous to try and code.
Title: Re: Upkeep system flawed
Post by: Draulius on August 02, 2011, 05:52:43 am
I think Upkeep should be removed or greatly reduced. In it's current state, it does not belong in this game, it's a flawed and imbalanced feature. It makes matches frustrating, losing & dying not fun, and it makes this game all about luck (whether or not you get the better team, flip a coin. i'm forced to leave matches otherwise). I just can't play anymore because of this, it's not entertaining nor does it improve my gaming experience. I don't want to downgrade or lose my gear just because I put time into into the game, and kept fighting even though I was losing, in fact I should be rewarded for that. We don't deserve this garbage, there's plenty of better alternatives.

Advancing my character should be fun, but instead it's difficult and hardly possible. I shouldn't have to save my money through 4 generations to be able to even bankroll a full plate armor set. THIS ISN'T FUN, who the heck thought this was a good idea? Remember when C-RPG was laid back, and fun? Now we have to put up with this and it ruins the game! Trust me, I really tried to get into C-RPG and tolerate this but I can't anymore, I'm quitting for a while until this is fixed.