cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: StanleyPain on January 05, 2011, 07:56:58 am
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Put it back to piercing. Archery had enough of a nerf as it is with the slow draw speed. Cut Damage is beyond terrible. 8+ Shots to take out a heavy armor wearer, something like 20 to take down a horse, 5 hits to take out a leather wearer while we where having archer wars across a few house roofs.
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To bad there won't be that many heavy anythings soon.
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The patch is an indiect buff to the archer class, just wait for the tincans to run out of money.
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Seeing enough heavy armor and armored horses as it is. Problem being that just about everything medium and up has really good resistances to cut damage. It's a bad change plain an simple. Outside of headshots it's taking on average 4-5 hits to bring someone down which is just not right.
40+ rounds played so far and I've seen more cav now then before. Pretty easy to get 100,000+ gold if you play your cards right.
Saying that something is going to be balanced by the upkeep costs is pretty ridiculous because there aren't any upkeep costs if you're not on a losing team, and it doesn't matter because just about any armor has lots of cut resistance. Took 3 near point blank arrows to kill a naked person, with bodkins + strong bow.
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The patch is an indiect buff to the archer class, just wait for the tincans to run out of money.
It's a wonderful indirect buff to cav right now.
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It's a wonderful indirect buff to cav right now.
Me Pikeman, me likes ;)
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Problem being that just about everything medium and up has really good resistances to cut damage. It's a bad change plain an simple. Outside of headshots it's taking on average 4-5 hits to bring someone down which is just not right.
Oh, imagine, it's not a automatic anti-tank gun anymore. You have to hit people multiple times for them to die. Horror!
CRPG has never been more enjoyable to play.
By the way, when people with archers get back to level 30 or close, it'll probably take them three kills to kill a average person, which sounds quite fine to me. Outside of expensive superweapons, it's not uncommon to require three - four hits to down a person, yet you want to do it in less from range.
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So you're saying it's normal and ok for it to require 8+ arrows to kill someone in heavy armor? 6 Arrows to kill a non armored horse, and 4 headshots to kill a plated one? 3 hits to kill someone naked? Crossbows can still 1 shot someone from across the map, and they still have piercing damage as well. Probably time to roll up a pure crossbowman ;)
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Crossbows can still 1 shot someone from across the map, and they still have piercing damage as well.
You must've missed the crossbow damage nerf :D
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So you're saying it's normal and ok for it to require 8+ arrows to kill someone in heavy armor? 6 Arrows to kill a non armored horse, and 4 headshots to kill a plated one? 3 hits to kill someone naked? Crossbows can still 1 shot someone from across the map, and they still have piercing damage as well. Probably time to roll up a pure crossbowman ;)
But you can already shoot 3 arrows while I shoot 1 bolt :P
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Apparently my dead body didn't :P
I can probably fire 1.5 - 2 arrows in that time. Draw speed when you don't have a tripple heirloomed bow of awesome is pretty damn slow right now.
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Yeah, me as an archer.. Im gonna conquer the world in Rome:Total war, hope archers will be welcome again after im done.
Not enough that now we gotto make every shoot count like a damn xbow because of that lame animation.
But even if we take our sweet time planting a nice shoot, its barely gonna damage your chainmail/heavyleather+ dude because its CUT damage..ofcourse, that makes total sense.
Hope it gets worked out, peace for now
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But you can already shoot 3 arrows while I shoot 1 bolt :P
and crossbow can still be a good side weapon where an archer need all his points in archery
archery nerf with:
cut damage, wpf costs more
though i must say archers have it really really good...compared to Horse Archers, they are now somewhat impossible...
you still need 6 agi each HA
3-4 HA(which decrease accuracy and damage by a good amount on horse) + cut damage + less wpf = a lvl 30 peasant on some donkey who cant kill anything
and the thingy about no one will wear plate is bad balancing...its possible to have plate so you need to balance this out too
its a double nerf for archers and triple nerf for horse archers...so subtract 1 nerf each and its good.
more cutting damage for bows (more on unarmored less damage on heavy armored)
or
let damage stay but change it to pierce damage
or better accuracy, maybe with pd works like in native?
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and crossbow can still be a good side weapon where an archer need all his points in archery
Sorry, I don't think I can afford to use my Well Made Siege Crossbow as a side weapon :P
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Sorry, I don't think I can afford to use my Well Made Siege Crossbow as a side weapon :P
than buy a cheaper crossbow...you dont need the best crossbow heirloomed as a side weapon
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So you're saying it's normal and ok for it to require 8+ arrows to kill someone in heavy armor? 6 Arrows to kill a non armored horse, and 4 headshots to kill a plated one? 3 hits to kill someone naked? Crossbows can still 1 shot someone from across the map, and they still have piercing damage as well. Probably time to roll up a pure crossbowman ;)
i completly agree, i was in a rooftop and it took me 4-6 hits to down the other archer in the next building, close to 30 arrows from all the misses, and suddenly a tincan with a sniper xbow headshots me from across the map lol.
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than buy a cheaper crossbow...you dont need the best crossbow heirloomed as a side weapon
I don't use it as a side weapon :P
Point being, I also plan on sinking most of my points in XBow wpf for the better accuracy and faster reload and I just realised I won't really be able to afford wearing even the LIGHT setup i was going with before the patch (nevermind the great helm, transitional armor and hourglass gauntlets; now I can barely afford using my old sword and board together with my xbow even if I run around in leather)
Which is ok. Also, you should consider sinking only 90% of your points in archery and putting the rest in 1h or 2h, or whatever you like that you can afford in addition to your bow, since WPF costs seem to increase at a much steeper rate, making a 100% pure char only slightly better than one that diversifies.
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My archer alt approves this patch. Whine on!
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I may be crazy but my HA aim seems to have improved after the patch, even with lower horse archery skill. Granted I didn't kill anyone, but it's much easier to shoot, even from my courser at full gallop. I'll have to experiment with head shots, cause body shots won't kill anyone. O.O
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Oddly enough I do find that accuracy is improved with this patch somehow. Even though the aiming reticle shows a wider range arrows tend to fly dead centre anyway.
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Good accuracy is perfectly achievable within the soft levelcap. I did well even without it, was topping scoreboards with my lvl24 archer a bit ago. Archery feels fine, actually, even better than before patch. Suggestion to whiners - l2play or roll another class.
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Suggestion to whiners - l2play or roll another class.
But its not easymode now, what makes people rage.
I rolled one just to see how it works, and so far so good (still a peasant, but I get kills).
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It's not a learn to play issue. I did a bunch of tests last night. With my Kheg bow + bodkins it took 3 arrows to kill a naked person, 5-7 to kill someone in medium armour and over 8 to kill someone in anything heavy.
It took anywhere from 2-4 headshots to bring down a plated charger and around 12-20 bodyshots depending where you hit. When I switched to a strong bow it took a couple less hits at times but even with a 150WPF the draw/notch animation is slow and there's a good 300-500ms delay on your arrow actually releasing when you have max aim.
[ptx] Which bow are you using?
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Longbow.
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Is it heirloomed?
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It might be, tho its still cutting damage. You do also know that you can now also heirloom your arrows for more damage?
Even so, i saw other archers, armed with khergit and strong bows, firing both fast and precise, dealing less, but still decent damage to kill medium armored people in 3 hits, where it takes me 2.
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Heirlooming makes all the difference in accuracy/speed these days. Those where probably heirloomed arrows being fired. I have nothing heirloomed and that seems to be the biggest problem seeing that I do shit for damage with a strong bow + bodkins. There really should have been a nice clean wipe. I can't even imagine how much rage a wipe would cause though ;)
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I just dont get it! Why archers had to be nerfed so badly? I dont remember archer never been ultimate killing machines like heavy cavalery or black armoured tincans. Honestly how many times you seen an archer top of the killing list. :shock:
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Noone has heirloomed arrows yet, since we can't retire so far. It does not improve draw speed, longbow is SLOOOOOOOOOOOW. Armored people CAN take a few arrows, i usually just hit them to stun, so they get killed in melee. But they wont last in their armor for long.
What is more, even with 0 PS (i had 2 PS before patch), my archer feels far more competent in melee, so i am not automatically screwed, whenever someone gets to me.
@Juhanius - Whenever any lvl35+ archer with at least some idea how to play came online?
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How will heirlooming bows work now? What are the bonuses that you get per heirloom to lets say a longbow?
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Masterwork Long Bow
weight 1.75
requirement 6
spd rtng 50
shoot speed 66
thrust damage 33 cut
accuracy 98
Can't use on horseback
11,637 gold
vs
Long Bow
weight 1.75
requirement 6
spd rtng 48
shoot speed 63
thrust damage 30 cut
accuracy 96
Can't use on horseback
8,312 gold
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Thank you
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Yeah that's what I thought, heirlooming bows is nice now.
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The damage debuff helps when you get to shoot a friendly calvarly after he stomps you to half hp off the spawn point. The largest unbalance in my game was the heavy calvary horses. Was playing EU 4 or something like that cause NA was down and they wouldnt die. i think this one guy was 40 and 1 just running around crushing people with plate horser... maybe he had a mace?
Shot that horse and him a good 15 times with myself and other archers. He still gets a small flank killing atleast 3 people just running them over and running off to safety.
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Yeah I was there for that last night, pretty epic horsing around :mrgreen:
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ptx, your noob archer experience doesnt count ...
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Before the patch i had 180wpf with my strong bow, that was perfect, now i have only 124wpf with my strong bow, and thats pretty hard than before, but i managed to kill some people.
However i won 2 or 3lvl with playing only 1hour so i will fast recover my wpf
[ptx] , how many wpf? It must be hard with a longbow :shock:
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All the time I've played crpg I've been pure infantry archer so I'm not complete newbie with it - for example I do know that pointing the sharp end to enemies usually works best.
However, I am complete newbie when it comes to whacking people with bec de corbin.
..so how in hell it makes any sense that killing people with bec de corbin with 1 polearms wpf is easier than killing same people with fine strong bow&large bag of khergits' and 160+ archery wpf..? Result of the patch - I carry bow along to get 2~3 shots in to people while they're busy figthing someone else before rushing in to whack them with a stick. Oh, and that stick deals 36 piercing damage, killing heavier infantry (not plated though) in 2~3 good whacks. Makes perfect sense.. yeah
Being at receiving end is sorta funny too. I've ran into hail of arrows losing only 2~3 hp per hit. Only crossbows deal any significant damage on my chainmails.
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I just dont get it! Why archers had to be nerfed so badly? I dont remember archer never been ultimate killing machines like heavy cavalery or black armoured tincans. Honestly how many times you seen an archer top of the killing list. :shock:
Archers were always at the top of the "annoying people" list. That seemed to be enough :|
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My last game was funny. I was wearing Coat of Plates, and I received 1 shot from xbow into stomach. Of course I died... Next game I received 4 arrows and I was still running :D
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Which is funnily enough quite as it should be, not to mention most archers can easily get 3-4 arrows in you by the time a xbow reloads :P
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Which is funnily enough quite as it should be, not to mention most archers can easily get 3-4 arrows in you by the time a xbow reloads :P
ahahahaha - pre-patch yes.
Now with the new animations not!
Time to roll an xbow-shooter?
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Try it, might be unpleasantly surprised by how people still don't die in 1 shot 90% of the time and you have to stand still to reload and if someone hits you with a rock at the end of your animation you have to start again :P
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One of the changes in the patch is a reduction in the shield "force field".
Archers should now be able to shoot around shields easier ie shoot the feet/head.
A friend of mine has a steel buckler and is now thinking of using something else as he gets more hits around it.
Of course, to reliably shoot the feet/head, they have to be that much closer....
So I'm against a change in damage type until the nuances of the patch changes are more widely known.
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Time to roll an xbow-shooter?
Try it. Your shots are more powerful, sure, but you also shoot less often and have to reload (and be stationary while doing so) before every shot. If you think it's nearly as powerful as, eg. old archery - you're gravely mistaken. The old turboranged is gone, and good riddance.
I've got both a crossbowman and a (fairly low level atm, but it's doing ok) archer, both work ok but not like old easymode archery.
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1. Thanks for the little archer nerf, I really appreciate this.
The new animation is nice, the damage dealt without much skill isn't that high anymore.
2. Nerf xbows.
Compared to bows they are pretty overpowered now.
There are enough medium armoured guys with 1h/ shield + xbow or 2h + xbow, they still deal pierce damage over distance without ANY skill needed and are able to survive in melee (skillbased).
The ranged spam became less deadly with the archer nerf, but its reduced to absurdity when you still get oneshotted by melee fighters with xbows, penetrating your light armour easily.
So please get either the old spam back, those archers were often enough easy prey, chanceless in melee, but dealing more realistic amounts of damage.
Or for the sake of balance, let xbows deal cutting dmg too, reduce their shot speed by ~10 points and give them instead ~10 extra dmg.
This would set every type of ranged weapon to its "ecological" niche, throwing to short, xbow to short to medium and bows to medium to large range.
Atm its to easy to pick a light crossbow, dealing 45 + 4 pierce dmg nearly as fast as a skilled dedicated bowman.
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Atm its to easy to pick a light crossbow, dealing 45 + 4 pierce dmg nearly as fast as a skilled dedicated bowman.
Not as fast, you know reloading time...
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2. Nerf xbows.
Compared to bows they are pretty overpowered now.
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Just a little discussion if you're up for reading: http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000241.html
A small excerpt :
First, a heavy crossbow (probably requiring a windlass to draw it) could have a draw weight of 1.000 pounds or more; bows from the wreck of the Mary Rose indicate that longbows ranged between 120 and 150 pounds. On the 50 m range, the crossbow certainly has the edge and probably will penetrate plate armour.
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I think I know why, sometimes, it takes an extraordinary amount of arrows to kill someone. Because of the cut damage change arrows now have a chance for a glancing blow. I noticed last night that someone had shot me in the neck but had only taken off a small chunk of my health. So angle of attack might have something to do with it?
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I think chadz wanted to make the archer class more support class , archer can stun the melee guys and then the teamates kill them.
But thats my opinion.
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Just recently I hit a guy wearing a Felt Cap (Head Armor 8) straight in the forehead and he lived. I have PD 5, 140 WPF in archery, Strong bow and Khergit arrows. It was funny to watch him running around with my arrow in his head but it was also wrong in so many ways. Archery is shit right now and thats a fact.
I have nothing against longer animations, IF holding longer means better accuracy which does not! Then let all archer spammers to spam all they like and miss in the process. But bring back the pierce damage because this is silly.
For others, I suggest buying a thing called shield. Even the 0 requirement shields can take a dozen of arrows before they break apart. I know you want an easy mode to run around freely while arrows bounce of your naked body but its just not right. I would love to see your poleaxes bounce of my body too but it aint right either.
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Just my opinion:
Needs to be pierce dmg. I'm an average archer in skill and archery has been disappointing so far. Had a guy in leather armor close to me (taking 4 hits to the torso from me) and kill me. If I'm going to have to melee everybody to be helpful to me team, I might as well invest the points into it, instead of archery. I'll keep pushing archery until I can get pd 6 going and see what happens. Maybe things will get better even with cut dmg and animation nerfs, once I'm at pd 6, wpf 200. If you can now heirloom bows without increased pd requirement (I haven't seen it myself yet), then that could also make archery work with cut dmg (albeit it'll take a while)
Sure I may not be using the pd 6 bows (pd 3), but kinda silly, especially since most recent patch will help people maintain higher end armor (5% upkeep instead of 20%).
Bottom line: like the animation, Hopefully piercing dmg will return. Archery whiners should just buy a damn shield. I'll wait and see how my progression with archery pans out before I go melee only.
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:twisted: useless against me now
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Fog, damage decrease, pierce removal, too much nerf... I was naked yesterday and got hit with 3 arrows around the neck and chest and wasnt below half health.
Also I shot someone in plate 5 times in upper chest from about 15 yards because he was afk. He didnt die and that i got one shot by a one handed sword. I did however 1 shot a ninja in the head from about 50 yards though. On average it takes me 3 to 4 shots to kill someone in medium/light armor.
148 archery and 4 PD lvl 24.
It is pretty balanced however if they have a sheild its almost impossible for me to kill them. Im sure it will get easier once i get a warbow at lvl 27.