Equipment Insurance - A Way to Fight Active Leeching/Gold Farming

[Gumdrawp]

OK, so YOU wouldnt wear armour any more often... but others would... i still vote NO. I'd rather see armour costs increase metal armour is for pansies!

Ive only been playing for one generation and with enough startup money to buy gear (50k) then a weapon i got from tyd i can manage to sustain full plate + bec + xbow/longspear and lose no more than ~3000 gold a day. And if i dont take a secondary i currently make money wearing full plate armor + bec.

I'm pretty sure Tydeus is trying to promote people using more low/medium armor loadouts than running around naked or in hobosuits. For 25k you can assume around 40ish body armor 30ish leg armor and 25-35 head armor + a higher end weapon.

TL;DR: It wont nerf your huscarl + broad axe or archers. Stop assuming it means everyone will wear plate, it actually makes it more difficult to maintain plate.


Edit:

how can it NOT lead to more plate? 30gold per tick + 50 in insurance... thats 80 gold per tick for the sake of maintaining your gear. OK so it's harder to stockpile gold, and thus harder to buy gear... but it is definetly going to make it easier to maintain... say nothing breaks.. you keep your 30 per tick. say everything breaks, well then you were effectively making 80 per tick instead of 30. say a bit breaks and your 'insurance money' covers it, you pocket your 30 per tick. in what way can you possibly have a harder time maintaining expensive gear with such a system?

If you would have actually unblindfolded yourself and read the first post youd notice that it will not be affected by the modifier, and assuming a typical modifier from walts thread about equipment repair and gold income, so it will actually lead to there being less sustainability on plate unless you actually can maintain a above average modifier.

[Panoply]

how can it NOT lead to more plate? 30gold per tick + 50 in insurance... thats 80 gold per tick for the sake of maintaining your gear. OK so it's harder to stockpile gold, and thus harder to buy gear... but it is definetly going to make it easier to maintain... say nothing breaks.. you keep your 30 per tick. say everything breaks, well then you were effectively making 80 per tick instead of 30. say a bit breaks and your 'insurance money' covers it, you pocket your 30 per tick. in what way can you possibly have a harder time maintaining expensive gear with such a system?

When nothing breaks you get less gold than the current system, so you'll stockpile less gold. If you're wearing a high cost loadout then when you get hit by costly repairs, you'll have to supplement the insurance gold with gold from your stockpile. Just as your average multiplier determines the break-even cost in the current system, Tydeus could tweak the numbers such that the break-even cost in his new system is at the same level.

<Tydeus> shouldn't make saving up for items too much longer. I mean, it could. When a peasant saved up for his first expensive weapon or armor, using it wouldn't be counted against him. He could still use it without an income loss as the upkeep for the item wouldn't be subtracting from his gold earned or at least not entirely. Before when I made alts or started out, I would save up for my first big weapon, then not even use it till I got my armor and gloves as well, so the upkeep of a 10K+ weapon and 6K armor wouldn't be counted against me.

Good point.

[Tydeus]

how can it NOT lead to more plate? 30gold per tick + 50 in insurance... thats 80 gold per tick for the sake of maintaining your gear. OK so it's harder to stockpile gold, and thus harder to buy gear... but it is definetly going to make it easier to maintain... say nothing breaks.. you keep your 30 per tick. say everything breaks, well then you were effectively making 80 per tick instead of 30. say a bit breaks and your 'insurance money' covers it, you pocket your 30 per tick. in what way can you possibly have a harder time maintaining expensive gear with such a system?

Because insurance would not be affected by a multiplier, that is the defining difference. God fucking damn-it Matey, you're a smart guy and I respect you and your play-style but you're either just not comprehending the mechanics at all or you didn't read the post in its entirety.

A 5x multiplier with the current system is 250 gold per tic, with my system you would get 150g plus 50g for insurance.
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Left side is gold per tick, bottom is the multiplier.

It's also very important to notice that on rounds where you break nothing, you get 40/50 gold less, per tick.

[Dehitay]

This is still going to set up a min armor level before you get screwed. And judging by the armor levels that have been predicted, this is going to lead to armor weight that screws over agility players and people that need wpf one way or the other.

[Tydeus]

This is still going to set up a min armor level before you get screwed. And judging by the armor levels that have been predicted, this is going to lead to armor weight that screws over agility players and people that need wpf one way or the other.

I listed a 7 weight build for archers that cost 16K gold. It wouldn't screw over them or any other athletics build. But that's just using MY numbers, that's not an issue with the concept.

Katana - 9376
Lameller Vest - 3342
Wisby Gauntlets - 4848
Boots + Helmet - Anywhere from 500g to 5000 depending on your preference.
18066 gold minimum for a heavy athletics build

Personally, I don't really see the issue.

My light armor athletics build was this:

Miaodao - 8376
Cavalry Robe - 3582
Mail Chausses - 1290
Scale Gauntlets - 6547
Magyar Helm - 1219
Sometimes a Long Spear - 5477

Without the Long Spear - 21014
With the Long Spear - 26491

More than enough to surpass any sort of advantages/disadvantages that would come from this being implemented, even under my numbers.

[Matey]

ah there is the one key thing i missed. I didnt catch the bit about insurance not being affected by multiplier. that being the case it would only impact sustainable gear at x1 and x2. (even at 30 gold per tick, thats 60 at x2 + the 50 for insurance = 110). Well I still don't see why it would be worth the effort to implement. It would hurt new players for one. I also don't see it making any difference what so ever in terms of people who are wearing dick all gear and leaching. if they are that determined to make as much money as possible, they arent going to bring anything that costs more than 100 gold to repair no matter what.. aka no item worth more than 2000 gold... and probably no more than 2 items of that value. sooo they will still have a shitty wep. crappy armour isnt as big a deal as crappy wep since some builds are designed with light armour in mind.

but the biggest question I have is... since when is there a problem with leachers? Am I just not playing in the right servers? my understanding of the auto balance is that it takes gear value into account when balancing, as well as player levels and score. There is also the fact that leaching can get people kicked/banned. sooo if they are blatant leaches, they get kicked/banned/QMLed. if they are wearing dick all gear and running around doing nothing useful, then the auto balance doesnt place any value on them, or they get kicked/banned. seeing as there are 1-10 admins on the NA servers pretty much 24/7... I don't see there being much of a problem in removing leachers.

lastly, some reasons this will never happen.

1. it may be impossible.
2. if not impossible, it is likely to take way more effort than it's worth and result in lots of whining from people who are mad they cant stockpile, and new players who have to spend way more time saving up for gear.
3. chadz is not likely to care nearly enough about the idea to dedicate any of his or the dev teams efforts into trying to make it work.

Sorry if you all hate me for pointing that out, and chadz, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so and I'll humbly apologize.

p.s. lol at gumdrawp rating all my posts as negative.

[Xol!]

but the biggest question I have is... since when is there a problem with leachers?

It isn't really a problem now.  It's annoying, but it's not a big deal.  The problem will be when strategus comes out, and gold value skyrockets.  It's a measure to combat naked peasant gold farming.

[Matey]

It isn't really a problem now.  It's annoying, but it's not a big deal.  The problem will be when strategus comes out, and gold value skyrockets.  It's a measure to combat naked peasant gold farming.

assuming gold does sky rocket in value. and if it does then implementing this would just be giving a big slap in the face to everyone who hasnt stockpiled tons of cash, meanwhile those with millions in the bank would see their gold increase in value a great deal.

anyways, gold might not be worth much in strat since you will only be able to use it to buy skills/services from other players... if troops are and resources are valued highly enough, people might not trade them for gold at all...

[Tydeus]

ah there is the one key thing i missed. I didnt catch the bit about insurance not being affected by multiplier. that being the case it would only impact sustainable gear at x1 and x2. (even at 30 gold per tick, thats 60 at x2 + the 50 for insurance = 110). Well I still don't see why it would be worth the effort to implement. It would hurt new players for one. I also don't see it making any difference what so ever in terms of people who are wearing dick all gear and leaching. if they are that determined to make as much money as possible, they arent going to bring anything that costs more than 100 gold to repair no matter what.. aka no item worth more than 2000 gold... and probably no more than 2 items of that value. sooo they will still have a shitty wep. crappy armour isnt as big a deal as crappy wep since some builds are designed with light armour in mind.

but the biggest question I have is... since when is there a problem with leachers? Am I just not playing in the right servers? my understanding of the auto balance is that it takes gear value into account when balancing, as well as player levels and score. There is also the fact that leaching can get people kicked/banned. sooo if they are blatant leaches, they get kicked/banned/QMLed. if they are wearing dick all gear and running around doing nothing useful, then the auto balance doesnt place any value on them, or they get kicked/banned. seeing as there are 1-10 admins on the NA servers pretty much 24/7... I don't see there being much of a problem in removing leachers.

lastly, some reasons this will never happen.

1. it may be impossible.
2. if not impossible, it is likely to take way more effort than it's worth and result in lots of whining from people who are mad they cant stockpile, and new players who have to spend way more time saving up for gear.
3. chadz is not likely to care nearly enough about the idea to dedicate any of his or the dev teams efforts into trying to make it work.

Sorry if you all hate me for pointing that out, and chadz, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so and I'll humbly apologize.

p.s. lol at gumdrawp rating all my posts as negative.

You can't kick/ban someone for wearing peasant gear and running around being all but completely useless, regardless of their level. Autobalance taking them into consideration is only half the problem. It still takes their rank/level into account and someone is still going to have to deal with them being on their team.

Aside from this though, you're missing half of the discussion. It's mainly about strategus. Go read the Strategus Economy thread. Gold farming is a serious issue which everyone complains about. Gold farming and turning crpg gold into strategus gold. chadz stated Strategus gold would come from crpg in one of his threads and several people opposed this idea mainly because of crpg gold farming that would occur. This system should satisfy everyone as it eliminates gold farming by removing the benefit of gaining gold by equipping trash armor and weapons. It shifts the focus of how to gain gold from wearing cheap armor to trying to maintain higher multipliers.

1. It's certainly possible.
2. It isn't really all that much effort compared to all the other things requested in the Suggestions Corner
3. All you have to do is read page 1 of this thread to see that he is interested in the subject: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9280.0.html

Edit: Even if we see inflation rather than deflation that still doesn't mean there wouldn't be a problem of people gold farming. As long as gold can be transferred to strategus there is risk of gold farming and that's what this targets.

[Matey]

well if it happens and it works, then im an asshole. but i dont see it happening.

[Rannepear]

What would be the difference between this idea and just lowering the repair costs all together? If this has been covered (I didn't read the other 2 pages of posts), then refer it to me.

[Panoply]

I've gone ahead and made an excel file that will graph average gold gained per tick vs. total equipment cost. You can fiddle around with parameters such as average multiplier (default set to 1.9375, representing 50% win rate approaching infinity rounds), gold per tick, and insurance set aside per tick. I've set up three systems for comparison, the current one, Tydeus' suggestion with constant insurance, and a third where insurance is influenced by multiplier.

Here's an example graph, showing some arbitrary parameters purely for demonstration:

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Is there a forum supported attachment system? Anyway here's the excel file:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/c2b1178/n/Upkeep.xlsx

I hope this settles concerns of favouring high cost loadouts and clarifies in general.

Some immediate observations that can be made are that in Tydeus' constant insurance system, the level at which gold gain is equal for all loadout costs at or below, is insurance gold per tick x 5000. Eg. if 50 gold of insurance is set aside per tick, all total equipment costs equal or below 50*500=25000 gold will earn gold at the same rate.


The third system where the multiplier affects insurance gold has the advantage of conserving the gold gain benefit due to skill (average multiplier) of the current system. Constant insurance has the side effect, relative to the current system, of lessening both the rewards and penalties to gold gain for skilled and poor players respectively.

EDIT: Just realized that the third system yields different equivalence points given different average multipliers, so you might as well forget about it.


I would support this suggestion, providing the equivalence line is much lower than 25k, probably something around 10k. It's implementation would be simple after suitable, albeit arbitrary, parameters are determined.

[Blondin]

There is may be something that i don't figure out, but i'm with Matey on this one, because i don't see an interest in this system, it will just low the gain for everybody, leechers will still leech (in better armor but still leech) and farmer will still farm (more and longer but still farm).

Leechers will wear better armor, but they will continue to leech as they know that they will not loose any gold.

Farmer will wear same armor as leechers (just what needed to not loose gold) and will farm for less gain, they will have to farm longer.

Everybody else will have less gain.

Agi build will have less interest and will be more difficult to play as everybody wear better armor.

Really i don't see what will change except that this move the armor cursor to higher value and move gold gain to lower value.
It's'just like if you lowered the gain, but this will erase upkeep on low armor, like if you lower upkeep price of everything.

The gold earned would be less but upkeep price would be less too.

[Tydeus]

What would be the difference between this idea and just lowering the repair costs all together? If this has been covered (I didn't read the other 2 pages of posts), then refer it to me.

Lowering repair costs across the board wouldn't do anything to combat active leeching or gold farming. With the old system you make the most gold for not helping your team and wearing extremely cheap gear, under my system you would make the most gold by actively participating in the round without skimping on equipment.

There is may be something that i don't figure out, but i'm with Matey on this one, because i don't see an interest in this system, it will just low the gain for everybody, leechers will still leech (in better armor but still leech) and farmer will still farm (more and longer but still farm).

(1)Leechers will wear better armor, but they will continue to leech as they know that they will not loose any gold.

Farmer will wear same armor as leechers (just what needed to not loose gold) and will farm for less gain, they will have to farm longer.

(2)Everybody else will have less gain.

(3)Agi build will have less interest and will be more difficult to play as everybody wear better armor.

(4)Really i don't see what will change except that this move the armor cursor to higher value and move gold gain to lower value.
It's'just like if you lowered the gain, but this will erase upkeep on low armor, like if you lower upkeep price of everything.

The gold earned would be less but upkeep price would be less too.

(1) There will always be afk leechers, that's not who I'm targeting with this as those people can be QML'ed. The leechers I'm talking about are the active leechers/gold farmers. People who are essentially as effective as an afk leecher but are actually not afk at all. They just run around with little to no gear while making loads of gold. These people are more often than not found in siege from my experience.

The isn't anything to be gained by actively leeching in decent quality gear as opposed to being naked. Yet if they put out just a bit of effort in their decent quality gear that doesn't cost them anything extra, their average multiplier will increase by quite a bit, thus they would gain more gold for participating, rather than were they truly leeching.

(2) Less gain were everyone running around naked, sure. Those that actively participate in the game and do no skimp on gear would most likely not see much of a change at all. Gain = profit, my system lowers income, true enough, but it also decreases expenses to offset any changes.

(3) Everybody will NOT be wearing better armor, the only people you will see with better armor, are the active leechers, we've already shown this several times. If you're implying that those active leechers being in mildly better gear will dissuade people from having an athletics build then you're also stating that the only people agi builds can kill are leechers, (Disclaimer: Sarcasm past this point.)

(click to show/hide)

in which case agi builds are useless and should be purged  from crpg to begin with.

(4) See all of the above responses.

[Kafein]

This suggestion doesn't remove gold-leeching at all. Instead, it "hides" gold-leeching people and make them more useful to their team, even if their only goal is to make gold.


If you guys aren't bothered by having 20 high level people running around naked with a club in your team, okay. This suggestion has no use for you in that case. But I doubt many people would be pleased with such a team.

If the threshold for insurance is 10k of equipment, I doubt any serious build will have it's total equipment value under this. To be really effective, however, 20k would be better. With 10k most builds can't do much.


But I have another suggestion that could be implemented to negate gold-leeching for Strat (but not for cRPG though). I stated it in another thread but it seems no one seen fit to answer. It seems both reasonable and very simple to me. This is the whole post, the important part is bolded :

I think that merged or even complelty coupled currency systems between cRPG and Strategus will fail.

If one cRPG gold equals k Strat gold, we will have :

- people farming cRPG to get Strat gold.
- people with fiefs/member of big clans in Strat using their gold to upkeep more and buy more heirlooms.

And I think boths are bad things. People that only want to play cRPG should still be competitive in it.

So instead of a basic conversion, what about a different system :

Each tick in cRPG gives you a fixed amount of Strategus gold, with the multiplier applied. You cannot transfer gold between cRPG and Strat, but playing cRPG gives you Strat gold this way. I don't think people should be able to get cRPG advantages by doing things in Strategus at all. But now that I think of it, maybe giving a free and fixed masterwork equipment for holding a town. For example, the owner of Rivacheg would get a +3 Broad one handed axe, and loose it immediatly when he looses the town.

What do you think ?

So with that system, Strat gold wouldn't be influenced by equipment upkeep at all, only the multiplier. In fact it would not make any difference for cRPG-only players and using less gear would not net you more Strat gold, so everybody would be using the same equipment as now (the best for winning as much as possible and break even or earn cRPG gold at the same time). Furthermore, it counters people that stack gold now in prevision of Strategus.