Fuck my horse BURF

[Elmetiacos]

More Cataphract Horses and Plated Chargers is unconditionally a bad thing. They prolong rounds, they lead to the The_Finn/Lady Gaga style horsebump play. Anything that reduces the cost of these mechahorses is to be opposed.

[Keshian]

This is an interesting suggestion. ROHYPNOL, one of the best NA cav (if not the best), just bought a Champion Cataphract and now uses that for lancing. Even though he doesn't 1 shot everyone, he still does no worse than with his Courser, if anything, he does better on certain maps because the horse can take so many hits. I'm not trying to say that the Cata is certainly a better horse, but I'm not so sure it would be a good thing to have everyone running around in those horses at the very least.

He always one hits me with 56 body armor and 61 hitpoints.  A champion cataphract with his 7 riding skill goes about the same speed as an unloomed courser with 4-5 riding so its not a huge tradeoff in speed but a big bonus on hitpoints.  It does seem odd though that no one ever seems to run out of money from upkeep anymore even if they ride armored horses or walk around in full plate seemingly all the time.  I wouldn't be opposed to raising the upkeep of all horses, just raising coursers/arabians more as you take away 6-7 riding skill from a cavalry person they still are a complete melee skill-setted person.  Horses give such a huge huge bonus now with ranged repeatedly nerfed and almost no one carrying pikes/long spears because of equipment slot changes that they should be a privilege for 50% of the time use at most, unless you ride a desert/rouncey/palfrey class (maybe reduce those upkeeps slightly).

[Torben]

dude.  rly?  i suggested that last month and looky who was against it.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,8409.msg124494.html#msg124494

[Tydeus]

He always one hits me with 56 body armor and 61 hitpoints.  A champion cataphract with his 7 riding skill goes about the same speed as an unloomed courser with 4-5 riding so its not a huge tradeoff in speed but a big bonus on hitpoints.  It does seem odd though that no one ever seems to run out of money from upkeep anymore even if they ride armored horses or walk around in full plate seemingly all the time.  I wouldn't be opposed to raising the upkeep of all horses, just raising coursers/arabians more as you take away 6-7 riding skill from a cavalry person they still are a complete melee skill-setted person.  Horses give such a huge huge bonus now with ranged repeatedly nerfed and almost no one carrying pikes/long spears because of equipment slot changes that they should be a privilege for 50% of the time use at most, unless you ride a desert/rouncey/palfrey class (maybe reduce those upkeeps slightly).

I see quite a few long spears one round and then a few maps late, I'll be the only one carrying one. It's in my default build, if I am in your server, I spawned with my MW Long Spear. Rohy complains about the upkeep of the cata quite a bit in mumble. I keep telling him that he should just retire and sell his loom point, then he'd pretty much never have to worry about gold.

More Cataphract Horses and Plated Chargers is unconditionally a bad thing. They prolong rounds, they lead to the The_Finn/Lady Gaga style horsebump play. Anything that reduces the cost of these mechahorses is to be opposed.

Cooperation and teamplay should be opposed? I love seeing cav bump for friendlies instead of going only for lance kills.

[Soldier_of_God]

you know, the sad thing is i've seen at least 20 cav threads out there, and not one dev has ever replied to any of them, if i recall; i hope this isn't going to be another brilliant idea thread flushed down the toilet.

Is Cav Balance screwed up?

Knights, Historically, were primarily used in flanking the enemy and breaking big groups; this is my thought on balance:
in real life, 1h would not jump up and stab you in the face, killing you instantly off your horse. but since this is a video game, and not reality, horses in NATIVE could take many hits, and could maneuver freely.  that is truly OP, and for a time, we had a system like this.
but then pikes, longspears, bows, and throwing were buffed... (cav counters).

native courser: 600 gold,  70 health, 12 armor,  2 riding,  44 maneuver,  50 speed , 12 charge damage.
CRPG courser: 19818 gold,  100 health, 18 armor,  4 riding,  42 maneuver,  48 speed , 24 charge damage.

the price is increased x30, the health +30, the armor +6, the requirement +2, the maneuver -2, and the speed -2, with 2x charge damage.

So its a little buffed, statistically, like you see the "1/10,000 people are infected with hiv bilboards every _ seconds"
there are two types of people that look at this board. the one that says "OMG POOR POOPLE ", and the ones like me saying, "im sure if you didn't go screwing everyone and shooting up you'd be one of the 9,999 that doesn't have it.

and like the previous, reality tells me that cav is weak, and needs a buff. i appreciate that the CRPG team BUFFED the cav, but they also buffed all cav's opposition without tweaking cav to adjust to the balancing.

YES, CAV IS KERFICKIED.

The price of cav sucks, yes?

Not necessarily. its a variable used by the dev team to balance items. the better it is, the more it costs, and thats how it should go. should charger cost 65k +, um.... not really IMO, but i dont balance games, i dont know. the closest i ever got was 3d modeling and 2d art designing for one.

what is there to do?

well, re balance it of course. i like the idea of less maneuver in favor of more health and armor personally.

[Glyph]

but then again,cav should and needs less manouver, they were a "hit hard, scare everyone off and kill some people, then run away so we can do it again" class, but if we would implement that in-game, it would be a real different game.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

I skimmed through the responces, and I noticed a few things. I saw a reference to history and--go die.

Torben: Yeah, I changed my mind--I was wrong then. Though the last bit of my post did touch on the lavish expensiveness of slow, hearty horses.

Keshian: Your post, while well meaning, seemed to be overflowing with feces--though in opposing what others have stated, you bring to light things that need addressing. You begin with an anecdote about yourself, not the best start. Of course a FUCKING CHAMPION CATAPHRACT, BEING RIDDEN BY SOMEBODY WITH 7ish RIDING SKILL WILL GO FAST. Stop using ROHYPNOL as an example, he's a fucking amazing cavalry player. He's abnormal.

Range repeatedly nerfed you say? The current primary predator of cavalry, besides polearm users, are ranged weapon users. Throwers have been nerfed, but I'm sure they'll be unfucked next patch. Archers aren't nerfed, they're doing great. Just look at the archer whine threads.

The people you see walking about on armored horses and in plate EARN their upkeep. They do not ALWAYS 'walk around' using their most expensive shit. How many armored horses do you see in a server at a time? I don't see many, though perhaps they do not play when I do. They might see that "KaMiKaZe_JoE" is playing, and log off in terror. Why in gods name would you support cavalry having to pay MORE for their mounts? I literally stated in my first post that armored cavalry is TOO expensive, and provided semi-logical support. Thank you for the contradiction, though.

To others: how about we don't fuck with horse stats yet? How about horse prices get unfucked, and if the problem's solved thats good. As my first post says, I believe that horse weirdness stems from an imbalance of the pricing. As Soldier_of_God points out, price is an aspect of game balance, and the better items should cost more. Horses are very valuable objects, and should be expensive. However... fuck just read my OP.   

[Beans]

This is an interesting suggestion. ROHYPNOL, one of the best NA cav (if not the best), just bought a Champion Cataphract and now uses that for lancing. Even though he doesn't 1 shot everyone, he still does no worse than with his Courser, if anything, he does better on certain maps because the horse can take so many hits. I'm not trying to say that the Cata is certainly a better horse, but I'm not so sure it would be a good thing to have everyone running around in those horses at the very least.

As a horseman and a piker I feel that more cataphracts would be bad, but I think that the warhorse and large warhorse need to be adjusted so that cav have an alternative in the lower cost horses. Courser and arabian should be adjusted to be more expensive and maybe stat tweaks.

I think it would be more interesting for everyone(cav and foot) to have cheap and expensive versions of both styles of horses.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

"I think it would be more interesting for everyone(cav and foot) to have cheap and expensive versions of both styles of horses."

This.

[Glyph]

and for everyone that has a long spear/pike, if you come against an armored horse, go for the rider, not the horse in first instance.

[Overdriven]

but then again,cav should and needs less manouver, they were a "hit hard, scare everyone off and kill some people, then run away so we can do it again" class, but if we would implement that in-game, it would be a real different game.

You can only implement that in game if you make all weapons that can lance a horse much more unwieldy...and remove the ability for tiny weapons to stop a heavy horse even at full charge. Unfortunately the current game mechanics force cavalry to be the way it is now.

[Glyph]

You can only implement that in game if you make all weapons that can lance a horse much more unwieldy...and remove the ability for tiny weapons to stop a heavy horse even at full charge. Unfortunately the current game mechanics force cavalry to be the way it is now.

rue, but then balance would be distroyed...