Author Topic: Jobs, Gold and Repair  (Read 6081 times)

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Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 05:08:42 pm »
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In fact there is far more ppl happy with present system than ppl that complains...

Why? Simply because chadz wants his mod to be played by any type of players, grinders, casual, good, noobs... And i think that he find a good system for all this type to have fun. A casual can play, he will not be too far of a no-life, and grinders can still grind, it's a win-win situation.
It's very hard to have a general vision of game mechanics and balance and everybody want change for himself.

Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 06:46:54 pm »
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cRPG is a grind-fest because multiplayer Warband is repetitive by design. 

'Grinding' is usually understood to mean doing the same things, over and over, to accumulate xp/gold.  The problematic part of that isn't the accumulation of xp/gold; it's the repetitive nature of what you do to get it.  For many people, that can become boring.  But repetition is the very nature of the game; you go online and fight battles against other people.  Over and over again. 

Now.. obviously the solution to the real problem with this isn't "Let's tweak or do away with gold and xp!"  That doesn't make the game any less repetitive.  That just makes it.. more like native multiplayer.  Which is extremely repetitive, though without the added fun of leveling up and buying better equipment.  If you're concerned about 'grinding', what you need to add more do to in the game.  But it's really about the silliest imaginable situation to create a game/mod with a traditional leveling up, earning gold/xp, buying equipment, etc. type setup, and then try to 'fix' elements that are the very core of that type of game. 

I think there would be far fewer complaints if the game hadn't been, until the recent (and still shaky) implementation of Defend the Village, pretty much exclusively PvP.  If there was more fighting against NPCs - especially if it were, say, part of Strategus, and success or failure had a more lasting impact - it wouldn't matter so much if some players were much stronger, and had much better equipment, than others.  But.. sadly, I doubt we will ever see such interesting developments in the future; there's far too much focus - obsession, even - with tweaking this or that minor element for 'balance'.  It's too bad that even in that fantasy far-future scenario in which all the weapons and armor are finally 'truly balanced', the game still won't be any more fun than it is now if nothing new has been added.

Adding "more to do" doesn't solve any of the issues that the repair system fixed, you're still going to have a moment when you have all the best items and you can't just add more items either because too high stats break the warband combat system (as seen before the lvl cap patch). You really completely missed the point of the repair system and are now just talking about turning cRPG into a WoW clone where grinding to the next tier of newly added content is the whole point of the game. Seriously have you ever tried WoW? It's a much closer fit to what you want cRPG to be than cRPG will ever be.

'Upkeep cost' solutions are sloppy, and don't fit the general game model - not when the gold you gain is mostly dependent on a randomly selected team.  Sure, if you try really hard you can somewhat increase the chances of your team winning and thus increase your multiplier; but it's still mostly dependent on teams, and autobalance does a lot to curtail individual influence anyway.

This I do feel is somewhat a problem, but one with no easy solution. I certainly haven't seen one that would work. My own way of dealing with this is just to never play in servers with more than 50 people. The less people there are, the more my personal work or the work of the group of friends/clanmates I'm playing with makes a difference.

Offline DANK

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 07:05:27 pm »
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I don't understand.... I play about 10 hours a week(While working 40+ hours a week).... I always wear the same armor (Vaegir War Helmet, Black Lamellar Vest, Red Wispy Gaunlets, Mail Chaussus, and my MW Danish Greatsword)  Armor: 47h 43b 33l Cost: 47,604 gold Slots: 2/4, and I still make about 25k a week.

I honestly think we make to much gold.... Playing casually for 2 months I have every piece of gear I want and 250k+ to go with it.
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Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 07:47:16 pm »
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Well.. the repair system didn't really fix anything. 

The game is still a grind-fest.  You just reach the top(-ish) a lot sooner now since prices are lower and gold gain is much faster.  Making it such that you can only use the most expensive equipment some of the time but not all of the time (were you inclined to use it to begin with) only 'fixed' the most superficial issue.

Hey, it's still better than nothing.  I'm just saying, it could be a lot better if there was more focus on moving the game forward rather than obsessive tweaking.  I got bored and took a 7-8 month break, long enough for it to be fresh and fun again - for now.  But.. there are no substantial differences.  It's not any better than it used to be.  Perhaps the very crude 'fix' of equipment upkeep serves as something of a patch for one of the effects of the deeper problem - there being very little to strive for after a certain point in the game - but things could be much more interesting.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 09:45:16 pm »
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I don't understand.... I play about 10 hours a week(While working 40+ hours a week).... I always wear the same armor (Vaegir War Helmet, Black Lamellar Vest, Red Wispy Gaunlets, Mail Chaussus, and my MW Danish Greatsword)  Armor: 47h 43b 33l Cost: 47,604 gold Slots: 2/4, and I still make about 25k a week.

I honestly think we make to much gold.... Playing casually for 2 months I have every piece of gear I want and 250k+ to go with it.

Upkeep costs are based on the base price of the item(5%) not counting heirloom price inflation. What is the total using a standard danish not a mw one?
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 09:59:29 pm »
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Heirloomed items don't have higher upkeep as far as I can tell.
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Offline DANK

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 10:02:19 pm »
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Upkeep costs are based on the base price of the item(5%) not counting heirloom price inflation. What is the total using a standard danish not a mw one?

Honestly don't know... I was just trying to say that you can wear decent gear and still make enough gold.
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Offline Sofa_King

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 02:07:28 am »
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as u guys r complaing about it, do u even have a idea that can help the game more balance? If u do, did u test it out like chadz and his team did? stop complaing, theres no 100% balance, the game is better than before, at least the level gap isnt that huge now.

Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 02:42:05 am »
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...there being very little to strive for after a certain point in the game - but things could be much more interesting.

Won't there always be that certain point? At some point you have the best items and the highest lvl. There is nothing that can be done about that. Adding more items/lvls only works up to a point, because too high item stats (things like speed and damage) break the warband combat system. Too high stats result in things like attacks being faster than the animation plays, in other words invisible attacks, arrows firing from bows before the archer has drawn the cord, that sort of thing.

Really I feel the long term future of cRPG has nothing to do with the repair system or how many items/lvls you can get. It has to do with new game modes and strategus. And the devs are working on that stuff. At least 2 more gamemodes are coming and strat seems to be looming closer and closer.

Also could you maybe give some suggestions as too how things could be made much more interesting?

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 11:40:29 am »
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honestly think we make to much gold.... Playing casually for 2 months I have every piece of gear I want and 250k+ to go with it.
The money system now is not about being able to buy the items, it is about being able to use them for long periods. Archers and light infantry rarely have monetary issues since they use cheap equipment anyway. For them money looses its meaning quite fast. For cavs and heavy infantry money limits their ability to field the best equipment that they would otherwise use.

edit:
Perhaps archers need more gold sink. The real thing they waste are arrows so perhaps the upkeep of those need to increase, but give them a wider range of quality in arrows (combinations of larger bags, damage bonuses), so that the expensive ones are also desired.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 11:44:13 am by MouthnHoof »

Offline DANK

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 05:43:30 pm »
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The money system now is not about being able to buy the items, it is about being able to use them for long periods. Archers and light infantry rarely have monetary issues since they use cheap equipment anyway. For them money looses its meaning quite fast. For cavs and heavy infantry money limits their ability to field the best equipment that they would otherwise use.

edit:
Perhaps archers need more gold sink. The real thing they waste are arrows so perhaps the upkeep of those need to increase, but give them a wider range of quality in arrows (combinations of larger bags, damage bonuses), so that the expensive ones are also desired.

So you think that Cavs and Heavy Infantry should have the same repair costs as a light infantry or archer running around in peasant gear(other than his bow and arrows).... You sir make no sense.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 06:09:46 pm »
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Perhaps archers need more gold sink. The real thing they waste are arrows so perhaps the upkeep of those need to increase, but give them a wider range of quality in arrows (combinations of larger bags, damage bonuses), so that the expensive ones are also desired.
>Stop It<


The new patches have increased the price of bows by a significant amount as well as doubling the costs of arrows (one quiver of bodkins now cost over five thousand and upkeeps about 256 per quiver).

The average archer now exceeds 30K in total gear.

Old Pre-Patch archers I might have agreed that they needed a gold sink, but the stream of patches has made rolling an archer significantly more expensive.

EDIT: I am currently experimenting with a bare bones (worst gear, Stick Wrapping Boots etc) archer load out, and I have lowered my total cost to about twelve thousand, but my scores have dropped significantly. Archers do not need a "gold sink" thank you very much.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 06:12:31 pm by Tears_of_Destiny »
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Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 11:20:50 pm »
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Won't there always be that certain point? At some point you have the best items and the highest lvl. There is nothing that can be done about that. Adding more items/lvls only works up to a point, because too high item stats (things like speed and damage) break the warband combat system. Too high stats result in things like attacks being faster than the animation plays, in other words invisible attacks, arrows firing from bows before the archer has drawn the cord, that sort of thing.

There might be a certain maximum point in theory, but with appropriate design even the most hardcore players can continue making real gains - slower and slower though it may be - without hitting that limit almost indefinitely.  Where the game engine demands limitations, let there be stat allocation limitations if need be; e.g. make 200 wpf or whatever number the max.  If attaining a higher level resulted in having excess wpp beyond that, there's always putting points into a different weapon. 

Given the current game design, there's really no reason in these terms why the level cap couldn't be considerably higher.  Even if limits need to be set on whatever stats to prevent 'game-breaking' situations, there is more than enough room for players to expand with multiple skill specializations.  Iron flesh, athletics, shield, power throw, riding... lots of ways to expand a build if you could go further than is currently possible.

But what seems the silliest to me is how quickly you reach the top now.  Okay, sure, if you forgo retirement you could eventually go up.. a few more levels.  Or with retirements, you can get some small bonuses from heirlooming stuff.  Still, consider how quickly I can purchase and use (though not -all- the time, with repair costs) the best equipment - the most expensive at least - as opposed to how very long it takes to get the relatively small bonuses from heirlooming:  Let's say that the average bonus multiplier is 2x, so you're earning 100 gold and 2000 xp per minute on average.  (Slighter less with repair costs, but I'll ignore that.)  So in.. under 6 hours, I can earn enough gold to buy Black Armor, with 60 points of body armor.  But reaching retirement, so I get heirloom that armor for a few more armor points.. that's something like 73 hours of total play time.   

If it were me designing the system of play from the ground up, I would make it take much longer for a player to get this top-of-the-line type equipment.  Granted, you want a curve of reward that is somewhat faster at the beginning, and after some point the progress must become much slower.  But if you can get to within 90-95% of the max in a few weeks of playing.. that just isn't a curve designed for longevity.

Now.. better diversity of game features is more important than all of that.  Not that there is any reason why there shouldn't also be a well-considered achievement curve, in addition to more game modes, Strategus, etc.  But these issues seem especially significant now, given the general lack of new game features over the past however many months.  Hopefully there will be some remedy on that front some time in the not too distant future, but as of now, when there's little else to do but fight, fight, and fight again while leveling up.. the unnecessary inelegance of the leveling/equipment system become more and more painful.   
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 11:29:21 pm by Barbas »

Offline Dehitay

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 11:50:04 pm »
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I was not aware there was a level cap? What is it?

Also, this game is mostly about skill. The fighting is the fun part here for most of us. If you considering the fighting to be boring and want to be entertained by your money supply, I also suggest you go play WoW. Not meant as an insult or anything, but it just seems like a better fit for you

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2011, 12:25:53 am »
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I was not aware there was a level cap? What is it?

Also, this game is mostly about skill. The fighting is the fun part here for most of us. If you considering the fighting to be boring and want to be entertained by your money supply, I also suggest you go play WoW. Not meant as an insult or anything, but it just seems like a better fit for you

If you just want fighting and don't like leveling, go play native. 

Not meant as an insult or anything; you just don't seem to understand the discussion.