Author Topic: Jobs, Gold and Repair  (Read 6017 times)

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Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 12:07:30 am »
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Once upon a time, it took ages to earn enough money for top tier equipment.  It used to be a fairly serious decision about what to buy since gold gain was so slow; you actually had to save up a while to try out that morningstar.  But once you had it, it was yours to use.  Those were good times; the quality (and diversity) of your equipment was determined by how much time you put in playing the game.

Now.. as it happened, a lot of people spent a lot of time playing without getting bored.. so what might be considered the 'problem' of too many people having top tier armor/weapons arose.  It is not unreasonable to suppose that there should be some sort of incentive for -not- using all of the most expensive equipment, in the interest of diversity in the game.

But yes, the 'solution' actually implemented is terrible.  Not being able to use equipment you've bought is stupid.  The real problem is that there is basically nothing to do with gold once you've bought whatever equipment you want.  This is a game design flaw.  Equipment repair fees is merely the laziest 'fix'; we don't want everyone to be wearing plate armor all the time, so let's just make it so they can't.

A genuine solution would involve, most importantly, giving players something worthwhile to do with gold.  It would be one thing if using expensive equipment slowed or even halted your gold gain, preventing you from saving up for something you probably would like to have - then at least it's your choice, and your preferences could dictate what you do.  Unfortunately.. given cRPG's history, any more elegant solution is more than one can expect.

Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 02:04:10 am »
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the quality (and diversity) of your equipment was determined by how much time you put in playing the game.

And now the quality (and diversity) of your equipment is determined by how well you do, instead of just how many hours you've put in. If you do well your average multiplier is higher and rounds end faster. That means you earn more money and pay less repair costs. The amount of time you play has (nearly) no effect on how much equipment you can wear.


That is my standard equipment and with that I still earn quite a bit of gold.

A genuine solution would involve, most importantly, giving players something worthwhile to do with gold. It would be one thing if using expensive equipment slowed or even halted your gold gain, preventing you from saving up for something you probably would like to have - then at least it's your choice, and your preferences could dictate what you do. Unfortunately.. given cRPG's history, any more elegant solution is more than one can expect.

And what exactly would you suggest the players spend their money on? And why would anyone not first buy equipment before spending money on your gold sink? And how would you fix the issue that with time comes infinite money? Without repair costs all you need to do is spend enough time grinding away until you can afford that black armour+plated charger and then never use anything else again.

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 02:55:14 am »
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Barbas you completly failed to understand the benefit of the upkeep big patch, i can understand this from a new player, but if you knowed this time you should understand that former system was exponientaly going to fail.

Offline Safavid

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 03:53:20 am »
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I am neither a stay at home father or a teenager, so I don't have the time to always gather the gold, plus why do they have armor if we should always be running around like peasants.  Once you buy the item, there should be no repair.  I stopped playing WOW because of the same kind of time consuming concepts.  Warband was fun because you didn't have to do all the waiting.  That is why lately I have switched back to Native most of the time and Fire and Sword.

Even if everybody had plate, which I don't like anyway due to weight issues, you can still have a lot of challenge based on your stats and weight ratio...and GOD FORBID...SKILL! :)

I see 2h agi whores running around swinging faster than 1h all the time.  Basically with the current system, only 2h agi whores and pikes have the game.  Out of every round you see 80% 2h agi and pikes and the rest are archers. 

Forget skills and balanced characters that have more than one or two weapons.  A typical warrior regardless of nation could wield a dagger, sword, bow/crossbow, arrows/bolts, and spear/lance that they would carry on their persons. 

BTW for all the Islamophobes out there that keep giving me negative karma points, it only shows your sense of inferiority and fear.  For a game like Warband that was made by Turks...it's ironic to find that you have tried to set up the game in order to reflect Euro-Centric fantasies of 2h, Pike, and Crossbow heaven.  Maybe the makers of the game itself will come out with an official CRPG game that has less limitations and more fun.

I just finished my consulting for one of America's biggest companies onsite, flying back and forth weekly and staying at the hotel, so I typically play on the week nights or weekends.  The rest of the time I am travelling or with my girl.  Until there is something better, we have to do with crpg and it's 2h agi spamfest I guess.   
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Offline Digglez

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 04:21:30 am »
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Until there is something better, we have to do with crpg and it's 2h agi spamfest I guess.   

Guess you just stepped out of your time machine from the past.  This game is dominated by STR monkeys with bec de corbin polearms.  Last patch pretty much destroyed the remaining agi-elves.

Noone cares about your real life either.

Offline Varyag

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 04:22:36 am »
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The gold/xp you gain highly depends on your luck... maybe you just had bad luck? I suggest increasing that stat...
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Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 11:50:54 am »
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Upkeep is based on time fractions, not total time. The people with no life playing this game and run in full place either have a stash of gold from previous low-cost runs or have to rotate their equipment just like you do in terms of fraction of the time. It is as fair as a system can get and I speak as someone that plays 4-5 hours a week max.


Offline Camaris

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 12:03:05 pm »
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2 people in this thread dont have any clue.

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 12:18:19 pm »
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You such a lame, if you don't like this mod why do you play it?

Second, you failled to understand that upkeep system was implemented for ppl like you (and me), the casual players. It's so clear, what don't you understand. The upkeep allow you to fight with the same chance a guy that play 1h a day or a guy that plays 12h a day, bedause they can only afford the same gear, no one have an advantage because he has a better gear, so it's only the skill that make the difference.

Your proposition is plain stupid and will have the opposite effect of what you want. You said once i buy an armor, i own it and you don't want to pay upkeep, but think a second. In 1 month, all the grinders will have the best armors and weapons, and the poor casual player will be pwn by uber gear players. That's'why there is upkeep, everybody have the same chance. It's called balance (btw did you play before big patch?).

As for the equipment, i don't see where there is a european/western lobby, a lot of ppl made a call for saranid/arabian style gears, i never see devs refuse to implement this. Just give them the models and you will wee it in the shop.

You speak about 2handers agi whores, you will see that in Strategus 2h are almost useless (oh shit Risen!). Seems to me that you don't know how to fight 2h, they pwn your ass and you just rage.

And final, plz don't speak of religion, it's a fuckin'game, don't mix your believes, no one cares, again it's just lame...

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 12:47:41 pm »
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Barbas you completly failed to understand the benefit of the upkeep big patch, i can understand this from a new player, but if you knowed this time you should understand that former system was exponientaly going to fail.

Naw, I was here 9-10 months ago before there was upkeep - back when they were first thinking about adding it to the game.

And.. the game was somewhat better back then, I'm sorry to say.  It was also possible to attain a considerably higher level - though the benefits of retiring were good enough that most everyone wanted to do it.

When you're designing a game that involves leveling up to become stronger and earning gold to buy better equipment, the natural inclination of players is to aim to become a high level with the best equipment.  If you don't want to see half the players in the game being high levels with the best stuff, you have to figure out how to make it take longer or be more difficult to reach that point, or have equipment that you can only attain through special means such that few players will have it, etc.  'Upkeep cost' solutions are sloppy, and don't fit the general game model - not when the gold you gain is mostly dependent on a randomly selected team.  Sure, if you try really hard you can somewhat increase the chances of your team winning and thus increase your multiplier; but it's still mostly dependent on teams, and autobalance does a lot to curtail individual influence anyway.

 

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 01:16:05 pm »
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If you make it longer to obtain high tier gear it would be worst, the gap between grinders and casual will be even bigger (logical). And it would mean that you only have to play a lot to have good gear. It's even worse with xp, you will have just to play a lot to be good... Don't you remember the 24/21 build with 200+wpf, how a casual player can fight equaly with this (rank 1 has more than 220 million xp...)

Offline SkyrayFox

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 01:24:32 pm »
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Naw, I was here 9-10 months ago before there was upkeep - back when they were first thinking about adding it to the game.

And.. the game was somewhat better back then, I'm sorry to say.  It was also possible to attain a considerably higher level - though the benefits of retiring were good enough that most everyone wanted to do it.

When you're designing a game that involves leveling up to become stronger and earning gold to buy better equipment, the natural inclination of players is to aim to become a high level with the best equipment.  If you don't want to see half the players in the game being high levels with the best stuff, you have to figure out how to make it take longer or be more difficult to reach that point, or have equipment that you can only attain through special means such that few players will have it, etc.  'Upkeep cost' solutions are sloppy, and don't fit the general game model - not when the gold you gain is mostly dependent on a randomly selected team.  Sure, if you try really hard you can somewhat increase the chances of your team winning and thus increase your multiplier; but it's still mostly dependent on teams, and auto-balance does a lot to curtail individual influence anyway.

chadz said pretty clearly when upkeep was introduced that he doesn't want cRPG to become a grind-fest. The only way to enjoy the game before the upkeep was to be a tincan. Surely getting to that level was hard and took a long time. Some players might even enjoy the challenge but once you got there nobody could take away that from you. You could ride that plated charger every round practically forever. How is that balanced for casual players who can't afford the grind I do not understand. Please explain that to me because I'm missing something.

Current upkeep system is the best balance between fun and grind. You don't have to be a tincan to enjoy the game now, there are still plenty of low armored targets to choose from precisely because of the current upkeep and retirement system. Even if you see a plated charger on the battlefield its pretty rare and doesn't ruin the gameplay for the other 100 people on the server who can't afford it.

If cRPG was a subscription based game like any other MMORPG out there you would have a point. Developers would want players to grind for a long time to get higher levels or equipment. Fortunately cRPG is free and will stay that way. Casual or not everyone can enjoy it now.

Offline Laufknoten

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 02:08:30 pm »
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Once upon a time, it took ages to earn enough money for top tier equipment.  It used to be a fairly serious decision about what to buy since gold gain was so slow; you actually had to save up a while to try out that morningstar.  But once you had it, it was yours to use.  Those were good times; the quality (and diversity) of your equipment was determined by how much time you put in playing the game.
At that point I agree with you. It was a nice feeling when I was finally able to afford my first transitional. Now I can afford everything in a few days and even if you can't wear the stuff all the time you don't have the "yes, finally" feeling anymore. :(
Besides that I don't have any problems with upkeep, cause I use crappy equipement most of the time anyway.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 02:46:30 pm »
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Upkeep was and still is a fail, fast-tought and brutal solution to a very subtle problem.

As you can never hope to go any further than level 35, heavy armor and expensive equipment is not optimal, with or without upkeep.

The "tincan" problem we had before the january patch was that people could and actually were level 40 and more. At those levels you can wear plate without any problem. Currently, with all the characters at level 30 or a little over, light armors prevail in combat against heavy armors, which only are good for first line shocktroopers. If big melee clusterfucks don't happen, then heavy armors are pure gimp. Weight slows down people so much that it is actually safer to wear light armors to protect yourself against projectiles. An decent archer or crossbowman hardly ever misses a plate guy at 200 meters. The same person with peasant clothes is way harder to hit.

This is about armors. The case of horses is different. Pre-january patch, horses were rare because many people didn't had the patience of accumulating so much money. And by the end, peasant plate chargers, The Finn and copycats were proofs that it needed some tweaks. Upkeep "solved" this by essentially making any decent horse an unsustainable goldsink, except for extraordinary good players. I don't think there are more than a handful of courser (or a more expensive horse) users that break even without switching often, so it is sort of overkill, and not enough at the same time.

Not enough simply because upkeep doesn't force you to use sustainable gear. If you have 1M gold, you can afford black armor + plate charger during several hundred rounds, if not more, so trolling is still possible and actually happens (no I'm not looking at you skyrayfox). This also means that people do grind. The reasons for grind didn't disappeared, it's actually the contrary. As the battlefield became increasingly competitive, even one heirloom point can make the difference between killing and dying. So now there are two reasons why you would grind, to get gold, and to get heirlooms (which in the end is the same thing with the marketplace).


Joker did an extremely well documented suggestion, describing the flaws of upkeep and how to design a system that could achieve the same goals without ruining equipment weight diversity, the feel of progression and the class balance. But as always it got trolled to the bones, just like any of his interesting posts, mind you, that wasn't really surprising.


And about "skill allows you to wear better equipment", this is just a big myth. First, your income and expenses are extremely random. Second, expensive doesn't mean better. Third, you will be teamswitched much more often if you have a good k/d, and that usually means losing your multiplier. And finally, choosing your banner wisely well will help you ten times more than playing well. Try changing your banner to T, DRZ or STR and join the russian server. Watch the xp and gold flow in like never before.

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 04:54:18 pm »
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chadz said pretty clearly when upkeep was introduced that he doesn't want cRPG to become a grind-fest.

cRPG is a grind-fest because multiplayer Warband is repetitive by design. 

'Grinding' is usually understood to mean doing the same things, over and over, to accumulate xp/gold.  The problematic part of that isn't the accumulation of xp/gold; it's the repetitive nature of what you do to get it.  For many people, that can become boring.  But repetition is the very nature of the game; you go online and fight battles against other people.  Over and over again. 

Now.. obviously the solution to the real problem with this isn't "Let's tweak or do away with gold and xp!"  That doesn't make the game any less repetitive.  That just makes it.. more like native multiplayer.  Which is extremely repetitive, though without the added fun of leveling up and buying better equipment.  If you're concerned about 'grinding', what you need to add more do to in the game.  But it's really about the silliest imaginable situation to create a game/mod with a traditional leveling up, earning gold/xp, buying equipment, etc. type setup, and then try to 'fix' elements that are the very core of that type of game. 

I think there would be far fewer complaints if the game hadn't been, until the recent (and still shaky) implementation of Defend the Village, pretty much exclusively PvP.  If there was more fighting against NPCs - especially if it were, say, part of Strategus, and success or failure had a more lasting impact - it wouldn't matter so much if some players were much stronger, and had much better equipment, than others.  But.. sadly, I doubt we will ever see such interesting developments in the future; there's far too much focus - obsession, even - with tweaking this or that minor element for 'balance'.  It's too bad that even in that fantasy far-future scenario in which all the weapons and armor are finally 'truly balanced', the game still won't be any more fun than it is now if nothing new has been added.