The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?

[Lichen]

Unfortunately, no one seems to care about realism...just balance.  Even if it turns this medieval combat sim into a fantasy game.

I think someone should make a realism mod and we can go from there.

I actually prefer realistic games myself but I enjoy different games either way realistic or not. I would totally play a 'realism' version of crpg if made where realism is the goal and balance is not (interestingly though realism when done right very often translates into a 'natural' balance). It could be done so everything is on the same database and all that so the community isn't 'split' and then people can play on realism servers and normal depending on what they feel like. It would definitely reduce whiners on realism servers since balance would not be an issue and would attract more hardcore players who enjoy more 'sim' type gameplay and trying to overcome 'unfair' advantages etc. I'd totally play it. It would probably be ALL I played since it's what I prefer.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Where is everyone getting the weapon length from, I just guessed it to be 1.5m long. Using ingame proportions and comparing it to my body. Course its slightly off, but it was a guess because I do not know what the ingame length values refer too. As for folks berating what I did, I clearly stated all my assumptions. If you don't like my assumptions then let me know and I would of been happy to reconsider them. In retro-spec I did not include the "weilder" of the weapon and their hand position. So, that would definitely change the game.

[Dezilagel]

Why is this even discussed? And why in this forum? O.o

[Spa_geh_tea]

Its a game balance suggestion based on some calculations.

PS. Shik........read my assumptions, clearly you did not.

[Spa_geh_tea]

So, taking everyones suggestions in I've made the new following assumptions, please read them before you make your comments.

Assumptions: The value given for the total weight of bec is assumed to include a 1.5m oak rod. The oak used is of extremely high density oak. The rod is uniform in cross sectional area. The metal is a single point of concentrated mass at 1.3m(at the position of determined COM from first calculation. I also assume(although seems incorrectly) that the wielders hand position is at the center of the rod, this was determined by looking at the top hand position ingame. So I have generated new FBD as shown.

Oak rod:
.025X.025X1.5 m
density 980 kg/m^3

FBD:

COM-----------(COM at half of the Oak)--------------(Metal Mass)-----
                       4.275N                                                25.64N

sum(Forces)=29.915N

COM of entire object= [4.275(.375m)+25.64(.55m)]/29.915
New Com of half the shaft: .52m from left end

New Com of total shaft: 1.27m from the left end

Using the given assumptions it was found that the COM is located .52m from the center. The weapon can still be considered unbalanced due to these specifications.

[Shik]

The question is why the metal head is considered to be a point mass, when the image shows it to be distributed a good length along the haft.
edited back for thread continuity

[Spa_geh_tea]

Because I do not know the distribution or dimension of that metal, as stated in the assumptions.

[Seawied]

Because I do not know the distribution or dimension of that metal, as stated in the assumptions.

I think it would really help your argument if you were able to dig up a historical bec de corbin's head weight. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you might be able to find a preserved one documented somewhere.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Yeah, if someone could find me better information that would help a ton.

[Shik]

The problem with the weight in the original post (7lb 11 oz) was that it came from a weapon much longer than the in game weapon. I see that in the second version of the calculations you've revised it to 6.6 pounds, which I assume comes from the in game value of 2.8kg. Of course the in game value is unreliable as far as realistic weight goes, as it is adjusted both roughly on realistic values and game balance. This usually results in the weight on weapons in game being inflated slightly beyond their correct weights.

As far as correct weights go, the crow's beak and other similar pick type weapons were indeed quite heavy at the end. I think an accurate estimate of the weight would be perhaps 5 pounds, give or take a little bit. The myarmoury page you linked shows a fairly short version of a similar weapon as 105centimeters and 3 pounds 8 inches. It notes that it is possibly shortened, which if it is, it is the wood being removed from the base of the weapon, meaning that a full length version would still have a fairly close weight. The in game model of the bec is roughly 165 centimeters long, so I think 5 pounds should be a reasonable estimate.

Another note about balance: the bec is not a "balanced" weapon by any means in real life, but that does not necessarily translate to having poor handling characteristics. Poleaxes are actually quite wieldy weapons. In any case, considering that the length of the weapon is only in the 120s, it seems reasonable to have the weapon with the balanced tag to me.

[Patricia]

This is why you dont bother posting stuff on science and such.

There is always someone who knows more

You know ALL about that, don't you.

[Spa_geh_tea]

If you refer to the shitty free body diagram that I left. It shows that I only considered half of the length instead of the full length of the weapon, which explains the drop in weight. This was in order to consider the weilder having full "control" of half the shaft.

I do agree in comparison to other ingame weapons, this one would be more balanced. The reason I am attacking the bec first is because it will recieve the most attention. My hidden agenda is to make nearly all weapons unbalanced, with a few exceptions. The purpose of this is actually to enhance game play, forcing people to be more careful about their attacks because they no longer be able to instantly block after swings or fient at rediculous moments of motion.

[Team_Jacob]

The problem with the weight in the original post (7lb 11 oz) was that it came from a weapon much longer than the in game weapon. I see that in the second version of the calculations you've revised it to 6.6 pounds, which I assume comes from the in game value of 2.8kg. Of course the in game value is unreliable as far as realistic weight goes, as it is adjusted both roughly on realistic values and game balance. This usually results in the weight on weapons in game being inflated slightly beyond their correct weights.

As far as correct weights go, the crow's beak and other similar pick type weapons were indeed quite heavy at the end. I think an accurate estimate of the weight would be perhaps 5 pounds, give or take a little bit. The myarmoury page you linked shows a fairly short version of a similar weapon as 105centimeters and 3 pounds 8 inches. It notes that it is possibly shortened, which if it is, it is the wood being removed from the base of the weapon, meaning that a full length version would still have a fairly close weight. The in game model of the bec is roughly 165 centimeters long, so I think 5 pounds should be a reasonable estimate.

Another note about balance: the bec is not a "balanced" weapon by any means in real life, but that does not necessarily translate to having poor handling characteristics. Poleaxes are actually quite wieldy weapons. In any case, considering that the length of the weapon is only in the 120s, it seems reasonable to have the weapon with the balanced tag to me.

As I said, I put a similar model into Ansys and went with and without the supports having mass, the overall center didn't change enough to be noteworthy. Also, poleaxes may be "quick" in the sense that you can move them around quickly, but to actually deliver a blow that will hurt someone in heavy armor, it takes more than a fast swipe to do so.

[Paul]

The balanced attribute we can use in Warband is a boolean, either black or white. We can't work with different shades of grey here for now. This might change with WSE but for now it's that way. The wide polearm grip, very short length(for a polearm) and relatively low weight made us consider the bec as balanced - no matter where a possible center of mass is. Now one could ask why the polemaces with comparable stats are unbalanced - it's for gameplay reasons.

[v/onMega]

Leave the beccy the way it is.

Never ever unbalanced...never.