Author Topic: Why don't people play this mod  (Read 2055 times)

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Offline PastorNapas

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Why don't people play this mod
« on: February 24, 2022, 10:33:04 pm »
+2
 :twisted:

We have a great community. A lot of interesting people.
Why do people play mercenaries? This is unbalanced nonsense
Let's make С-rpg a great mod again! Fuck the rest of the mods, fuck the weak community.
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Offline njames89

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2022, 01:15:24 am »
+4
Bit of a vicious circle in that population is the number one driver for other players to get on. That combined with the mod being left in disrepair many times over the years and the fact that community has aged considerably are the largest factors I would say.

Still I am on playing Battle/DTV a few times a week with 10-20 players on. Can be fun but no doubt the more the merrier!

Offline Algarn

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2022, 05:06:50 pm »
+5
Besides what James said regarding existing population problems, a few things could be added. There were many balance changes over the years that made several classes either require extreme dedication/skill to play, or made them simply unplayable (horse thrower anyone ?). There is also the problem of levelling, meaning old players, who are already far more skilled at the game on average, also happen to have full sets of loomed items, and more often than not, a level 35 character at the very least. Imagine someone new hopping on the game, wanting to play crossbow or thrower, and being faced with a level 38/39 player : they aren't going to have a good time, so they leave the game and don't come back; simply because they were faced with an impossible challenge, which didn't end up being fun for them.

cRPG didn't know what it wanted to be years ago, so many balance changes, justified or unjustified mind you, made a lot of people leave the games in waves. One of the reasons mercs is appealing is because of the cheese, which means there are a lot of skill equalizers, just like in native. Add to that cRPG is now limited to DTV, slaying the same waves of bots using the same tactics every time (fence, hut, staircase, cav kite, shieldwalls); and on a good day, small-scale battle with hardcore, dedicated players, which leads back to what I was talking about earlier. I'm personally fine with cRPG being "competitive" in nature, but it needs to change to attract a fresh playerbase, which is difficult itself because warband is slowly dying now that bannerlord released (and failed).

There is no silver bullet that will revitalize cRPG, however some solutions can be thought of : one may lie in making nearly all builds possible again (the way it was pre-Tydeus); perhaps possibly using the strat item factions to create DTV bot factions factions, and dedicated bot trees for said factions, where there would be a dominance in low armor enemies (the way warfare mostly was back in the middle ages), with a small core of "elite" enemies to kill, growing wave after wave. Perhaps the bots could use some AI leader to order the troops against the players, and that could shift the PvE element from defending the virgin to focusing on player survival only. Regarding battle, banner balance needs to be changed to include class as a factor (one of the few good features of merc is that your character has a class attached to it depending on its build). Finally, the reward system needs to change, and the XP grind needs to be reduced, and capped, because despite being a core element of old cRPG, it now only creates a gigantic gap in levels for new players, and makes this gap very hard to breach for people who have a life. Restoring strat is a good idea, but without players to play it, I do not see the point. Furthermore, I think the 6 loomed items players get should be given with a few free exchanges so they could choose to allocate their points on other items. Finally, I think there needs to be an up to date guide for all the mechanics of the mod, where all the balance changes compared to native are noted, or at least the most important ones, because players are often completely clueless and might be tempted to make builds that do not work at all, adding to the frustration.

The post is disorderly, but I think it is fairly comprehensive. This isn't a diss to the current devs who stepped up by the way, more of a critique towards the way it was managed up to 2018. Whether they can do anything to revive the corpse for the 27th time or not, that I do not know.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 05:13:56 pm by Algarn »

Offline PastorNapas

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2022, 10:15:45 pm »
0
I agree with Аlgarn. there were a lot of changes that many players were not ready for. I love this mod, I love the people that play it. we are strong and will cope with all adversities!!!

Offline njames89

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2022, 01:45:41 am »
0
Unfortunately a lot of the more complex ideas would require large investments of time. Currently we have devs who work full time in their actual jobs and in addition are volunteering their time to help. If we had more people who were able to contribute it might be more feasible to implement some of the more demanding ideas. Things like undoing 6-7 years of balancing are not feasible. Total re work of DTV is likely also not feasible.

Fixing strat is important as when it is fixed we can create themed or event battles to host for the community. Something like this where people can plan in advance and attend a battle that will have decent roster size could be good. Strat is easily the best part of the game in my opinion and I would absolutely play it if it were working.

An up to date guide is a very good idea but not sure who would have the time to make it.

Banner balance class feature was tried IIRC and the code for banner balance was described as nightmare fuel last time it was worked on. I believe Dave worked on balance last time around and the decision was to leave it as it bugged when changes were implemented.

Lots of good ideas from your post Algarn. I think the main barrier to being able to implement some stuff like this would be current dev motivation as well as a general lack of time to commit to mod from current team.

TLDR
Lots of improvements that can be made still and its great for community to weigh in, but progress is limited due to a busy dev team.

Offline wayyyyyne

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2022, 06:54:09 pm »
+4
Even when cRPG was highly populated, the mere idea of having to play catch-up in terms of levels and looms was something that was hugely off-putting to newcomers. From my observation it's probably the most cited reason as to why people didn't stick to the mod.
Even though I think the stat impact on performance of both levels and looms is highly overstated, it's still a factor. Add to that that the underlying mechanics are significantly different and you have an environment that does favor the established playerbase quite a bit. Even being decent in native only translates kinda so-so to the combat in cRPG.

I don't think there's a real chance to entice new players to sink their time into this but what might be possible is to bring back some of the old players. cRPG is one of those games that needs to achieve a critical mass of players before it becomes enjoyable because as of right now what you can see on the rare occasion that battle is populated is basically just a sequence of duels. With a low player count you have all the problems of a high player count exacerbated but with none of the upsides unless you really enjoy duels of some sort.

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2022, 04:41:25 pm »
+1
Besides what James said regarding existing population problems, a few things could be added. There were many balance changes over the years that made several classes either require extreme dedication/skill to play, or made them simply unplayable (horse thrower anyone ?). There is also the problem of levelling, meaning old players, who are already far more skilled at the game on average, also happen to have full sets of loomed items, and more often than not, a level 35 character at the very least. Imagine someone new hopping on the game, wanting to play crossbow or thrower, and being faced with a level 38/39 player : they aren't going to have a good time, so they leave the game and don't come back; simply because they were faced with an impossible challenge, which didn't end up being fun for them.

cRPG didn't know what it wanted to be years ago, so many balance changes, justified or unjustified mind you, made a lot of people leave the games in waves. One of the reasons mercs is appealing is because of the cheese, which means there are a lot of skill equalizers, just like in native. Add to that cRPG is now limited to DTV, slaying the same waves of bots using the same tactics every time (fence, hut, staircase, cav kite, shieldwalls); and on a good day, small-scale battle with hardcore, dedicated players, which leads back to what I was talking about earlier. I'm personally fine with cRPG being "competitive" in nature, but it needs to change to attract a fresh playerbase, which is difficult itself because warband is slowly dying now that bannerlord released (and failed).

There is no silver bullet that will revitalize cRPG, however some solutions can be thought of : one may lie in making nearly all builds possible again (the way it was pre-Tydeus); perhaps possibly using the strat item factions to create DTV bot factions factions, and dedicated bot trees for said factions, where there would be a dominance in low armor enemies (the way warfare mostly was back in the middle ages), with a small core of "elite" enemies to kill, growing wave after wave. Perhaps the bots could use some AI leader to order the troops against the players, and that could shift the PvE element from defending the virgin to focusing on player survival only. Regarding battle, banner balance needs to be changed to include class as a factor (one of the few good features of merc is that your character has a class attached to it depending on its build). Finally, the reward system needs to change, and the XP grind needs to be reduced, and capped, because despite being a core element of old cRPG, it now only creates a gigantic gap in levels for new players, and makes this gap very hard to breach for people who have a life. Restoring strat is a good idea, but without players to play it, I do not see the point. Furthermore, I think the 6 loomed items players get should be given with a few free exchanges so they could choose to allocate their points on other items. Finally, I think there needs to be an up to date guide for all the mechanics of the mod, where all the balance changes compared to native are noted, or at least the most important ones, because players are often completely clueless and might be tempted to make builds that do not work at all, adding to the frustration.

The post is disorderly, but I think it is fairly comprehensive. This isn't a diss to the current devs who stepped up by the way, more of a critique towards the way it was managed up to 2018. Whether they can do anything to revive the corpse for the 27th time or not, that I do not know.

Sadly its too late for that :) people like kratos did try to make some changes (back in 2018 ish? dont remember) but crpg boomers said no because their levels and looms were too precious for them and now none of them plays expect a few...

Offline Torben

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2022, 09:13:47 am »
+3
why tf would some kid try or even find this mod of an old game in the huge ocean of games out there. 

Maybe cassi can blow Mr.Beast for some crpg promo?
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Offline Miley

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2022, 01:23:32 am »
+1
cRPG 2 when??????????????????????

Offline Algarn

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2022, 02:22:28 pm »
0
why tf would some kid try or even find this mod of an old game in the huge ocean of games out there. 

That's a good question, I don't think it's literally impossible for cRPG to be revived so to speak, considering the abysmal state of bannerlord MP. However, it's going to take some serious changes, and a lot of promotion/communication so players know cRPG exists.

We might also need player count spikes, not unlike the happy hour for mercs, where an incentive draws players to play at a specific hour/timeframe. The very odd thing is the amount of people who came back to the forums to claim their looms, yet who never played more than a few minutes (or even at all), which means they were drawn in by the rewards. Reworking the economy/reward system to be both more rewarding and less punishing to new/bad players is an absolute must for players to stay longer. More pop equals more gooder, as population (or lack thereof) creates a feedback loop which means more people play the game, or leave if the player counts start to drop.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Why don't people play this mod
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2022, 11:14:19 pm »
+1
Bit of a vicious circle in that population is the number one driver for other players to get on. That combined with the mod being left in disrepair many times over the years and the fact that community has aged considerably are the largest factors I would say.

Still I am on playing Battle/DTV a few times a week with 10-20 players on. Can be fun but no doubt the more the merrier!

This is a pretty good take but I feel like DTV is a part of the problem that makes people not play the actual M&B game.

DTV helps to get some players around because bored people can play with bots when no one is there, but apart from that its not good for the mod imo if people want to revive it. Would be better if people had to play a pvp mode. Besides that I think M&B2 needs to be adopted and transitioned to, but I didn't really like the time I spent in M&B 2 MP so far
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 03:49:28 pm by Grumbs »
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