Something about mail coifs and aventails - since I'm bored

[Deus Immortalis]

Well since I am bored again, and more people than expected cared about my corrazina post, I'm going to do one for mail coifs.

Keep in mind that I'm not the one that researched all of this. I usually see or hear people talk about and explain it, with sources. I then look at the sources, and go 'well that is a reasonable source'. Then I do some minor independent research.

Really most of this stuff is thanks to the youtube channel Knyght Errant. The guy's awesome at explaining armors.

Well anyway, mail coifs

At first whenever I saw a mail coif, it'd be this:

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I'd then go: "Who the fuck in their right mind would ever wear that?"

Well the truth is... nobody. Not medieval knights or warriors at least. The mail coif is very misrepresented in todays history. We just have to look at some pictures from the Maciejowski bible, and we see that the mail coifs are actually very different from the previous misinterpretation.

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As you can see, all mail coifs depicted are tapered to the chin and the neck. They're not left hanging, and they don't leave one of your most critical areas - the throat - open for attack. Now some might say that drawings aren't a great way to find out about armor, since the artists might imagine things. I'd like to disagree. Most miniatures and arts found in different areas of the world, painted by different artists, have been pretty consistent with what they show in terms of armor.

Simply - they showed what was around during that time.

Two interpretations of this style of coif can be seen here:

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Both are correct. The first one is simply two separate pieces. One goes almost vertical on your head, while the other one goes the horizontally over it.
The second style is a mail coif which ends just below your chin, with then a padded ventail drawn over the face to protect the throat, chin and mouth.
Both cover much better than the crap we're used to seeing

Now there were a few ways to get the mail not to hang off your chin (as in the second picture). One way seen in some artwork is simple lacing. One would tie the mail securely around the neck, and it would not hang and bring extra weight.

There were many more configurations of mail coifs, but that would take ages to write. So instead I'm going to cheat and list this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJivNyTZv0Y
which explains them way better than I do.

Back to coifs

Coifs were never worn standalone. They always had padding underneath, and often also had something known as a Cervelliere, or Secret helm, worn under it. We can again see this in artwork where some soldiers who have their mail coif off are seen with this helmet under it:

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Sometimes they were worn over it, although this was rarer.

Now on to aventails

An aventail is the mail attached to a helmet (as opposed to worn under it), which would generally be a bascinet. As with the mail coifs, these always taper at the chin, which can be seen in countless artworks, effigies and findings from the medieval era.

This is not a proper aventail:

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These are:

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Well, if people still are interested, I might write about something else in the future

[Golem]

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square. At eighty, I hand up ass.

[Nickleback]

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square. At eighty, I hand up ass.

wut???

Immortalis these mail coifs look cool but these don't seem protective to me at all,what if i just jab my heavy claymore sword to the opponent's head,will it be protected by the velocity of 20 mph/h coming sword??? I think it will just break through it ?

So it doesn't protect from sword,i think it will not protect from highly strained arrow shot as well???   i think these mail coifs can only protect if i pee on the enemy from the castle,even in that circumstance it wouldn't protect the head completely.

Can u write about swords if u have some knowledge would be happy to read

[KaleLord]

wut???

Immortalis these mail coifs look cool but these don't seem protective to me at all,what if i just jab my heavy claymore sword to the opponent's head,will it be protected by the velocity of 20 mph/h coming sword??? I think it will just break through it ?

So it doesn't protect from sword,i think it will not protect from highly strained arrow shot as well???   i think these mail coifs can only protect if i pee on the enemy from the castle,even in that circumstance it wouldn't protect the head completely.

Can u write about swords if u have some knowledge would be happy to read

Mail is tougher than most people think. Your idea of a claymore(scottish probably) has a lenticular/convex grind which isn't optimal for thrusting. Also the fact that a guy wearing mail isn't a stationary target, chances are the guy will survive.

[zottlmarsch]

Reading these threads is 1000x more fun than playing cRPG currently is. Keep em coming.

[Deus Immortalis]

wut???

Immortalis these mail coifs look cool but these don't seem protective to me at all,what if i just jab my heavy claymore sword to the opponent's head,will it be protected by the velocity of 20 mph/h coming sword??? I think it will just break through it ?

So it doesn't protect from sword,i think it will not protect from highly strained arrow shot as well???   i think these mail coifs can only protect if i pee on the enemy from the castle,even in that circumstance it wouldn't protect the head completely.

Can u write about swords if u have some knowledge would be happy to read

Mail is almost impervious to cuts, and decently protective against piercing attacks. It would stop a claymore (which doesn't really have a piercing tip) quite easily. The problem with the mail coifs lie in the fact that they are very bad against blunt force. Even if it stopped the sword from going through (which it would) the force may still split your skull or break your neck if you were unlucky.
That's why they were worn with padding underneath, and if you were a knight you also wore a solid steel helmet either over or under it (depending on the period and what type of helmet).

It would still hurt to get hit by a 2kg sword in the head (if you're talking about the greatsword variant of the claymore) but it would not be lethal.

Against arrows, it would generally protect well enough especially if you wore the cervelliere under it. Unless we're talking about the 100+ pound longbows (taking about the draw weight, not actual weight), but those were feared for a reason. You still had a shield for dealing with those when need arose. Shields only got scarce when armor got good enough to protect against arrows and crossbows reliably, around the late 14th century.

About swords, sure I could. I'm not an expert on those by any means, but I'm not an expert on armor either

Edit: Coincidentally I stumbled upon this guy here, who actually does test a claymore against a mail coif (the shape is not the greatest, but the material was properly made). About 2:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9eCzG8AAoQ

However keep in mind that by the time greatswords had appeared, mail coifs were out of fashion by a few centuries. And even so, he still wasn't wearing a solid helmet under, something the wealthier would do.

[Sniger]

Mail is tougher than most people think

goto 4:24

[Dalhi]

That's some cheap made in china mail from Aliexpress.

[Deus Immortalis]

goto 4:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw3lcgIAwLk

[njames89]

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[Deus Immortalis]

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Me no understand

[njames89]

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Me no understand

At one point this video was being posted to new threads like 15 times a day lol

[Sniger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw3lcgIAwLk

very nice, didnt knew this, ty.

when they test with the throwing lance it seem a bit like he doesnt throw as hard in the 2nd test on the "good" mail, not that i think the weak mail would be able to take this, buuut that lance is nasty

[Sniger]

At one point this video was being posted to new threads like 15 times a day lol

i know lol sorry, i just thought id repost it in chain (got it? "ha-ha") with this topic since we prolly have new readers, despite the mail error, its still an a good video

archers are OP, always been. in games and irl. deal with it.

to play shielder in battle is a no brainer tbh.

based on this thread: buff all crpg mails 2018

[Deus Immortalis]

i know lol sorry, i just thought id repost it in chain (got it? "ha-ha") with this topic since we prolly have new readers, despite the mail error, its still an a good video

archers are OP, always been. in games and irl. deal with it.

to play shielder in battle is a no brainer tbh.

based on this thread: buff all crpg mails 2018

Well not really, since the guy uses a very low-poundage bow (which allows him to shoot fast), the bow is modern (increasing the power while keeping the poundage low) and the guy has trained for ages.

Real archers weren't even close. Sure, they might have fielded stronger bows. But knights, and wealthy mercs would have plate. It all balances out.

I'll keep my english/french knight look thanks. No puny shields for me