Author Topic: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets  (Read 22022 times)

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Offline blizzick

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2018, 05:52:47 pm »
0
I need Exhange for
-Throwinglance
-Throwingdaggers

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2018, 09:34:34 pm »
+1
Post/suggest some tweaks if any weapons look out of place. I think throwing daggers / 4,6-point shurikens are a bit out of place at the moment compared to snowflakes.

Throwing lances were changed to 2013 ammo and power (with much higher accuracy), but there was some caution with the proposed damage increase to 55. I suggested toning it down from the proposed 2 slot 2 ammo to 4 slot 3 ammo or 1 slot 1 ammo at the last minute, so you can blame me there :). If it's too weak, I'll let the balancers know about it.

The two handed throwing axe will be able to keep the style that the old lances had with a similar damage output and 0 slot throwing weapon sidearms.

I felt as if lances and daggers where in a perfectly viable spot. Very enjoyable to use, semi useful to very useful depending on the player and also a lot(!) on momentum of the team. Maybe slightly too weak to cav, as i felt throwing should be best in taking down horses. Now it seems like theyve just been put in a no fun allowed corner. Look, point and laugh but dont touch. Seriously, i cant see any reason why they were altered, and so the only conclusion i can make is that NA has some people running around with stupid builds and this was some kind of counter to that rather than the build as a whole. I know there was some NA guy (seriously, every na player on eu seems to have a 200 word essay offensive name in all caps, dont even have to look at ping to pick em out) running around in eu with daggers only, but its not like he actually did anything.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 02:39:57 am by Gravoth_iii »
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Offline XyNox

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2018, 01:22:32 am »
+7
Just give out exchanges and do whatever you want. I have full faith in the team to balance the mod to shit.

i will take few days to think about it but i will probably quit the mod and ask for a permaban to never come again... and maybe come back when we will have an objective balacing team... even my ht build is fucked now ...

Well i'm breaking 27k hours in warband, and crpg was always closest to my heart mod but watching how you fucking lost the track in just everything: levels, weapon balance, bugs, mappools, game mechanic.

And we need more polls for item changes and balancing, this is way to closed of from the public when its going on. sudden changes in classes and gear is not good for the playerbase atm

etc.


Even though some of those posts may have received downvotes, assumingly since people generally do not like to see "QQ" in any form as well as possible personal reasons, let me assure that I can all but understand these concerns all too well.

Especially the last quote regarding transparency I view as highly justified, given the hefty impact on certain builds/classes/playstyles which feel like happening "out of nowhere" and I think some of those could have been avoided by being more open about the balance-procedures in progress. This may sound hypocritical to some as I am, although not the only one but often one of the first to criticise forum input to be trashtalk and lobbying rather than reasonable feedback, but I feel the community deserves to get an insight of what is happening behind the scenes of the game many of you have been loyal to for so many years. So for disclosure, let me give you a few examples of how and why some decisions came to pass and what you can do to help:

The balance team currently consists of people with quite different class-backgrounds and belong to both of NA and EU, which then again leads to the individuals being accustomed to quite different ingame metas.

I am not at all overstating things when I am mentioning that there are severe and occasionally outright hostile disagreements taking place in the balance board on a regular basis, so please do not assume that all of those patched changes have been met with unified approval among balancers.


I do neither appreaciate nor contemplate to slander people, however I feel it is necessary to call current circumstances by its right name to make things clear:

More times than less, balance is a mess. Some people want to erase pretty much every tweak to the game that happened since 2012, other people seemingly have a vision of their own of what crpg is supposed to be and appear to pursue that vision at any sacrifice. To this day, there is no true consensus on that crucial point and it seems some people are more interested in chalking up personal victories with each of their nerf/buff proposals being implemented into the game. Consequently, balance suggestions are being thrown around with a specific agenda in mind, when the basis of the intended outcome of that change isnt even collectively deemed desirable. Occasionally I receive a personal messages over discord by another balancer stating how incompetent this guy or that proposal was and I dont even want to know how often some certain balancers may have sent impolite messages to people behind my back regarding my competence to perform the job.

I am not gonna lie and I dont want to protray myself as the good good samaritan, I am surely guilty as well of estimating my own expertise higher than others every now and then.

If the affore-mentioned wasnt enough though, even approaching a topic that changes the way some classes perfrom is a nightmare. Without calling any names, some balancers will respect another person having more experience with a certain class than themselves and will refrain from advancing opinions when not feeling capable of providing any qualified input, while other balancers will insist of entitling themselves to have a say in everything and anything regardless of actual experience with the content they are about to modify, yet another balancer will openly arrogate that his decision is justified because he played another game and it basically works in combarable ways there.

Discussing anything becomes increasingly difficult to say the least and the professionalism you expect from people to bear the responsibility of having such a great impact of the state of the game is replaced with, if you allow the quote from another balancer, "mere intellectual sparring". My honest evaluation of the balance team is that the necessary cohesion and experience to perform appropriately is not present and constructive community input is required to lay out the missing guidelines just described above for this whole ordeal to work.


In the end though, and this is probably the key problem, regardless of who or how many balancers advise or vote on what, the decision what will pass and what wont is entirely up Professor.

It pains me deeply to say this, especially since I have huge respect for the amount of work and time prof puts into the game, but I dont have much hope that this just described structure will allow for a positive developement of the game. As you may have noticed in some of his posts by now, Professor stated that he is reserving the right to make decisions if he sees them justified. Although it honours him that he is also willing to take the blame for any possible mistakes, this philosophy will arguably not lead to an improvement of the game. You cannot expect one guy to have enough experience with every aspect of the game and with every class to always expect an educated course of action, as some of the recent changes should serve as evidence enough for. I also discussed this several times and questioned how it is feasible not to have people in charge that are dedicated to the class in question which is about to receive significant overhauls, although even after these talks, I expect a division of power is not likely to happen.

There will certainly be QOL changes, bugfixes and decisions with good intentions but whether crpg will still be crpg after ten or fifteen patches in the future, I cannot say for certain.


Why am I telling you all this, whats the take away ?

Give . Constructive . Argumentative . Feedback.

If balancer A proposes change X and Professor ends up estimating that this proposal is valid, although maybe not necessarily having ingame experience with that specific part of the game that just has been proposed, there is nothing I or any other single balancer can do to overrule that decision. There is no council, there is no necessary amount of votes, there is no division of power.

I know it sounds optimistic, I know its the same old story that happened with other head devs as well, I know m0d 1s de4d.

I couldnt blame anyone for not giving a fuck anymore and I am highly aware that I am not exactly considered the first contact person by many players, given the nature of me being ranged ph4ggot ( although I really play more pole than archer currently tbh ) and being a sore badmin who only hands out irrelevant and unjustified bans, but if you can present reasonable suggestions of why what needs to be changed, I am willing to play "community manager" and bring these cases to attention, which will only lead to results though if enough presentable input is acquired.


I am not even sure if the people I am criticising here posses the objectivity to regard this letter as exactly that - criticism rather than insult - or if I will be permabanned 5 minutes after posting this :mrgreen: but having tried to discuss this with the concerned people without success, reaching communication impasses more and more frequently, looking at the current player population, reading daily what balancers are proposing to change and reading through very reasonable disapproval and discontent on the forums, I frankly dont care.

Thanks for reading
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Offline San

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2018, 03:38:50 am »
+2
I felt as if lances and daggers where in a perfectly viable spot. Very enjoyable to use, semi useful to very useful depending on the player and also a lot(!) on momentum of the team. Maybe slightly too weak to cav, as i felt throwing should be best in taking down horses. Now it seems like theyve just been put in a no fun allowed corner. Look, point and laugh but dont touch. Seriously, i cant see any reason why they were altered, and so the only conclusion i can make is that NA has some people running around with stupid builds and this was some kind of counter to that rather than the build as a whole. I know there was some NA guy (seriously, every na player on eu seems to have a 200 word essay offensive name in all caps, dont even have to look at ping to pick em out) running around in eu with daggers only, but its not like he actually did anything.

Yeah, I was the one who gave the throwing weapons those stats before for the most part (and added throwing weapon bonus to cav before it was reverted). Someone else had other thoughts and proposed something else and I gave feedback based on that. Can't be stubborn with my own opinions on things and try to compromise. I don't know enough about the current meta to rebalance classes (except for shields apparently) so I would rather provide small input to current balance suggestions.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2018, 04:42:15 am »
0
Thanks for your continued efforts. I'm not sure about the extra HP though. Wouldn't it be just as well to give players over 34 a single skill point per level instead? Then they could get that 2 HP from iron flesh or finally get that fourth point in shield skill to combat ranged or whatever they want. Messing with builds is the salt of cRPG after all and an absolute freeze for point gain at 34 locks in the optimal builds which you can't do better than, no matter how much you play. The extra HP is also "invisible". Sure it's there when you play and get hit, but you can't see it on the website or in-game character menu or anywhere. People who don't frequent the forum won't even know it's there.

Also if there's exchanges given out this patch; I'd like one for Throwing Lance, Throwing Daggers and the Mercenary Sword.

Offline Asheram

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2018, 05:09:49 am »
+1
What ever was planned for lvl 35 didnt happen or it is invisible as I am now level 35 and received 1att point and 1 skill point of which I turned the att point to 2 skill points and put all 3 skill points into wpf raising it from 1 to 4. lvl 35 15/33 5ps 11ath 4wpm 136 polearm wpf 46/65 with bonus 1h wpf. I was 15/33 with 5ps/11ath/1wpm at lvl 34.
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2018, 09:15:19 am »
0
Sounds like the normal level up mechanism is bugged. I haven't gained a new level post-patch, but my build is the same now at 36 as it was at 34 pre-patch. So the database adjustment worked.

Offline traxits

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2018, 09:16:59 am »
+1
Post/suggest some tweaks if any weapons look out of place. I think throwing daggers / 4,6-point shurikens are a bit out of place at the moment compared to snowflakes.

Throwing lances were changed to 2013 ammo and power (with much higher accuracy), but there was some caution with the proposed damage increase to 55. I suggested toning it down from the proposed 2 slot 2 ammo to 4 slot 3 ammo or 1 slot 1 ammo at the last minute, so you can blame me there :). If it's too weak, I'll let the balancers know about it.

The two handed throwing axe will be able to keep the style that the old lances had with a similar damage output and 0 slot throwing weapon sidearms.

san, i get that you used to be a prominent member of this community back in the day and i remember that, BUT.

why in the actual fuck are you balancing items? i've seen you play maybe twice in the past month, there's no way you have any idea if anything is working or if it isn't.
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Offline kasMVC

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2018, 10:43:39 pm »
0
Plancion
weapon length: 133
weight: 3
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 133
thrust damage: 25 pierce
swing damage: 34 pierce
slots:

vs

Polehammer
weapon length: 130
weight: 3
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 130
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 34 pierce
slots:

Unless I'm reading this wrong plancion is one more damage and 3 more length?

Offline XyNox

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2018, 11:14:24 pm »
0
Polehammer has 33 blunt secondary mode with KD capability
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Offline Asheram

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2018, 01:27:06 am »
0
What ever was planned for lvl 35 didnt happen or it is invisible as I am now level 35 and received 1att point and 1 skill point of which I turned the att point to 2 skill points and put all 3 skill points into wpf raising it from 1 to 4. lvl 35 15/33 5ps 11ath 4wpm 136 polearm wpf 46/65 with bonus 1h wpf. I was 15/33 with 5ps/11ath/1wpm at lvl 34.
Ok so I just respecced and my points are back to what they were when I was lvl 34 but if I hadn't respecced I would have had the 1att/1skill point for lvl 35. Where is this "hp bonus" registered?
Anyhow I wish you would have done what you said you was going to before and let people at lvl 35 still get the points and make level 36 the special hp bonus only level. Especially seeing how it is now easier to attain the said level.
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« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 01:42:44 am by Asheram »
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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2018, 01:58:08 am »
0
Did something happen with First person/Third person aiming?  Firing in first person is now shooting to the right of the crosshair, in Third person this does not happen.  I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but I wasn't hitting shots I thought I should be, so I tested against a wall and it's quite obviously off in First person.  I use First person 90% of the time, Third Person for concealed shots, switching for each shot, then back to third person when not aiming/melee.

Offline San

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2018, 04:33:31 am »
0
san, i get that you used to be a prominent member of this community back in the day and i remember that, BUT.

why in the actual fuck are you balancing items? i've seen you play maybe twice in the past month, there's no way you have any idea if anything is working or if it isn't.

I agree mostly, other than shields and blatant things anyone can point out like the eastern lamellar greaves, I just provide input on why past decisions were made or random info. I was asked back, but the current balancers have their own ideas for items.

Throwing changes reverted a lot of changes I made in the past, so I felt responsible and gave some input, but never directly changed any throwing weaps/asserted my opinion (Changes are 90%+ the same as proposed). Because I didn't play much, I only made some comments/asked questions for the most part. You can @ balancers on discord for similar results after a patch hits for quick results.

The changes to shield weight were based on discussion at http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/shield-rebalancing/ . I couldn't find a good way to easily change the effective weight like it stated in the thread, so shields were made more favorable to carry in general, especially anti-ranged shields. Not a fan of sweeping changes, but apparently ranged has been complained about for a while. Not touching xbow/archery ever if I can help it.

Offline RD_Professor

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2018, 06:13:22 am »
0
Ok so I just respecced and my points are back to what they were when I was lvl 34 but if I hadn't respecced I would have had the 1att/1skill point for lvl 35. Where is this "hp bonus" registered?
Anyhow I wish you would have done what you said you was going to before and let people at lvl 35 still get the points and make level 36 the special hp bonus only level. Especially seeing how it is now easier to attain the said level.
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HP bonus done in tricky ingame code. 36 is now the special HP bonus only level as well.
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Offline Reyiz

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Re: 0.5.3.0: Reset without Regrets
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2018, 07:43:20 am »
+1
the mod was awesome when noone played it