Yew Bow is yewsless (ololo)

[War_Ferret]

First of all, you need 6 WM / 155 wpf to get even a tiny window of steady aiming with a yew bow +3. With only 5 WM / 139 wpf it's impossible to release an arrow before the reticule has started spreading out again.

If you want to get the full potential damage, you need 10 power draw. And if you still want to have that tiny window of steady aiming, you need to be level 34 with 30/18 and spend every single point on WM and PD. So this should be the ultimate damage archer build: Unable to run, unable to strike, unable to take many hits or wear armor without wpf penalty, even unable to properly aim or shoot at a decent rate... Only able to hit like a ballista, right?...

No, the damage is a joke. Since we don't see damage notifications in the chat log, I don't have any numbers, but it's not significantly higher than with a longbow or composite bow. You still need 3+ body hits for anything armored and headshots are about as deadly as with other bows.

I can use a composite or longbow, get only 4 or 5 WM for pinpoint accuracy and better reload speed, plus 8 or 9 PD AND PS for a melee hybrid. So what's the point of the Yew Bow?

[DaveUKR]

First of all, you need 6 WM / 155 wpf to get even a tiny window of steady aiming with a yew bow +3. With only 5 WM / 139 wpf it's impossible to release an arrow before the reticule has started spreading out again.

If you want to get the full potential damage, you need 10 power draw. And if you still want to have that tiny window of steady aiming, you need to be level 34 with 30/18 and spend every single point on WM and PD. So this should be the ultimate damage archer build: Unable to run, unable to strike, unable to take many hits or wear armor without wpf penalty, even unable to properly aim or shoot at a decent rate... Only able to hit like a ballista, right?...

No, the damage is a joke. Since we don't see damage notifications in the chat log, I don't have any numbers, but it's not significantly higher than with a longbow or composite bow. You still need 3+ body hits for anything armored and headshots are about as deadly as with other bows.

I can use a composite or longbow, get only 4 or 5 WM for pinpoint accuracy and better reload speed, plus 8 or 9 PD AND PS for a melee hybrid. So what's the point of the Yew Bow?

with 10 PD +3 yew and +3 bodkins you can 2bodyshot any ranged in the game (in some circumstances oneshot even) and you can 1shot headshot almost everyone as well. You have pinpoint accuracy and ultimate DPS with a lot of ammo. You can also have a decent 1slot weapon and you still cry. You also want to be fast and be able to hold your aim forever. Not going to happen.

[War_Ferret]

Obviously you haven't actually used yew bow and don't know what you're talking about. All I'm saying is it's shit compared to other high-tier bows. It's much less accurate and steady and the damage gets soaked up by any armor. I can 2-shot any ranged? Lol, I can 1/2-shot unarmored peasants even with composite bow, only much quicker and easier. Maybe you get pinpoint accuracy at 21 or 24 agi with yew bow. 18 is just enough to have a steady reticule for 3 micro seconds. Longbow basically does the same amount of damage and is much much faster and more accurate.

[DaveUKR]

Obviously you haven't actually used yew bow and don't know what you're talking about. All I'm saying is it's shit compared to other high-tier bows. It's much less accurate and steady and the damage gets soaked up by any armor. I can 2-shot any ranged? Lol, I can 1/2-shot unarmored peasants even with composite bow, only much quicker and easier. Maybe you get pinpoint accuracy at 21 or 24 agi with yew bow. 18 is just enough to have a steady reticule for 3 micro seconds. Longbow basically does the same amount of damage and is much much faster and more accurate.

Difference between 8 PD composite bow and 10 PD yew longbow (MW ofc) is around 30% in damage.

And yes, this bow is so inaccurate 

(click to show/hide)

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This is only 4 WM and 120 wpf.

Speed difference between longbow and and yew longbow (both MW) is less than 5% with the same amount of wpf. So I don't know what you're talking about. The amount of damage you can deal with Yew longbow is insane and this thread is like "buff my weapon!!!". If you're not shit and can calculate ballistics+aim properly+have battle awareness (like most of pro archers do) you'll be able to outdamage pretty much every other class in the game.

[War_Ferret]

Difference between 8 PD composite bow and 10 PD yew longbow (MW ofc) is around 30% in damage.

And yes, this bow is so inaccurate 

(click to show/hide)

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This is only 4 WM and 120 wpf.

Speed difference between longbow and and yew longbow (both MW) is less than 5% with the same amount of wpf. So I don't know what you're talking about. The amount of damage you can deal with Yew longbow is insane and this thread is like "buff my weapon!!!". If you're not shit and can calculate ballistics+aim properly+have battle awareness (like most of pro archers do) you'll be able to outdamage pretty much every other class in the game.

Yes, except that's bullshit, because I tested this not long ago and, regardless of how much PD you have, you need 6 WM to aim steady with yew bow (below armor penalty threshold). So you're screen is probably taken with a 24 agi build or something. Or maybe you used a +0 bow, not knowing that accuracy decreases with damage... And there is no per se "30% more damage", because raw damage has very little to do with final damage. Where do you even get these numbers from? Why don't you just do some testing with +3 long/yew/composite bow before you keep talking random bs? I am not saying buff my weapon. I am saying compared to (+3) composite and longbow, yew bow is complete garbage, because it is and I do know what I'm talking about.

edit: just tested again and can confirm one more time that while you have pinpoint accuracy with composite bow +3 for 1 or 2 seconds at 139 wpf / 5 WM (similar with longbow +3), you can't release an arrow with yew bow +3 before the reticule has started spreading out again... just like I said before.

[DaveUKR]

Yes, except that's bullshit, because I tested this not long ago and, regardless of how much PD you have, you need 6 WM to aim steady with yew bow (below armor penalty threshold). So you're screen is probably taken with a 24 agi build or something. Or maybe you used a +0 bow, not knowing that accuracy decreases with damage... And there is no per se "30% more damage", because raw damage has very little to do with final damage. Where do you even get these numbers from? Why don't you just do some testing with +3 long/yew/composite bow before you keep talking random bs? I am not saying buff my weapon. I am saying compared to (+3) composite and longbow, yew bow is complete garbage, because it is and I do know what I'm talking about.

edit: just tested again and can confirm one more time that while you have pinpoint accuracy with composite bow +3 for 1 or 2 seconds at 139 wpf / 5 WM (similar with longbow +3), you can't release an arrow with yew bow +3 before the reticule has started spreading out again... just like I said before.

What a clown. I used 30-12 build with 10 PD and 4 WM with +3 Yew Longbow on screenshot. There is no point for me to fake the screenshot. And ofc I didn't get numbers out of my ass and never did it in the past.

I don't think there is any point to continue this discussion because you exactly don't know what you're talking about.

[Paul]

Buttnaked in the rain. Now that's how you realisticly roleplay an English peasant archer.

[XyNox]

Actually ferret knows what he is talking about and the issue is known. Its not as simpl as "at x wpf you will be this accurate" but in summary his assertion is correct.

[War_Ferret]

What a clown. I used 30-12 build with 10 PD and 4 WM with +3 Yew Longbow on screenshot. There is no point for me to fake the screenshot. And ofc I didn't get numbers out of my ass and never did it in the past.

I don't think there is any point to continue this discussion because you exactly don't know what you're talking about.

Then you made the screenshot before you were able to actually shoot, because you CAN'T release before the fricking reticule starts getting bigger again with that build, which I just tested, you moronic clown.

And your damage calculations are just nonsense. If we still had damage messages in the log, anyone could see it. But as it happens, a balancer told me not long ago that he does about 1 or 2 more damage with MW yew bow and 10 PD than with MW longbow and 9 PD against medium armor. So there's your massive damage, lol. That's not nearly enough compensation for the far inferior speed and accuracy. That bow is underpowered and that's a fact.

edit: 27/15 is actually accurate for a short time (24/15 isn't) because of the wpf per PD bonus - not nearly as good as the others though

[DaveUKR]

Well, I suggested you to come and prove your point but both you and Xynox just kept bashing me with like "you don't know shit, I have access to source code".

As I've claimed it earlier: the release point and the tightest crosshair are both bound to animation end. So technically it's possible to release the arrow with closest crosshair (even though in this case there is almost no possible time window to do it). Here's a screencast proof. Exactly the same build and conditions I used for the last screenshot. I even suggested to permaban me if there is actually a code that changed it from native yet you still don't even want to discuss.

If hitting a barrel (player) from like half map range is not enough for you then I don't even know what accuracy you want. A couple of first arrows went higher because I realised that I aim too high and moved one pixel lower.

(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o4kug8FDBA

[War_Ferret]

Well, I suggested you to come and prove your point but both you and Xynox just kept bashing me with like "you don't know shit, I have access to source code".

As I've claimed it earlier: the release point and the tightest crosshair are both bound to animation end. So technically it's possible to release the arrow with closest crosshair (even though in this case there is almost no possible time window to do it). Here's a screencast proof. Exactly the same build and conditions I used for the last screenshot. I even suggested to permaban me if there is actually a code that changed it from native yet you still don't even want to discuss.

If hitting a barrel (player) from like half map range is not enough for you then I don't even know what accuracy you want. A couple of first arrows went higher because I realised that I aim too high and moved one pixel lower.

(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o4kug8FDBA

I'm not gonna comment on the bashing, except maybe "lol". I didn't claim to have access to anything, but I also didn't make any claims that would require me to prove them with any kind of source code. I just claim that you can't release an arrow with yew bow before the reticule has started getting bigger again, unless you are at least 27/15 or 24/18, which is something that everyone can see for themselves. You, on the other hand, claim that this is only a visual effect and the arrow really gets released exactly at minimum crosshair size, even though it doesn't look that way. Unfortunetely, you don't have the source code nor any other proof, so you're just talking.

I'm not sure what your video is supposed to prove... that you can hit a stationary barrel from some distance about 50% of the time? Lol, wow. I guess yew bow isn't so bad after all! Only when fighting moving targets, it's a bit trickier. When you have zero time to aim before releasing an arrow, no accurate window at all (regardless whether accuracy is still at its maximum or already worse), you have to fire immediately when reloading is finished. There's no real telling when precisely this will be. Like you said, there's a number of dead frames at the end of the animation and you basically have to guess. The problem is that milliseconds matter here and there's no way to precisely match your own aim with the release, so your shots will always either be unaimed (because you aimed too early) or inaccurate (aimed too late). You can't control your shots without at least a very small, stable window of aiming.

And that is why your point isn't just unproven but also irrelevant.

[DaveUKR]

I'm not gonna comment on the bashing, except maybe "lol". I didn't claim to have access to anything, but I also didn't make any claims that would require me to prove them with any kind of source code. I just claim that you can't release an arrow with yew bow before the reticule has started getting bigger again, unless you are at least 27/15 or 24/18, which is something that everyone can see for themselves. You, on the other hand, claim that this is only a visual effect and the arrow really gets released exactly at minimum crosshair size, even though it doesn't look that way. Unfortunetely, you don't have the source code nor any other proof, so you're just talking.

I'm not sure what your video is supposed to prove... that you can hit a stationary barrel from some distance about 50% of the time? Lol, wow. I guess yew bow isn't so bad after all! Only when fighting moving targets, it's a bit trickier. When you have zero time to aim before releasing an arrow, no accurate window at all (regardless whether accuracy is still at its maximum or already worse), you have to fire immediately when reloading is finished. There's no real telling when precisely this will be. Like you said, there's a number of dead frames at the end of the animation and you basically have to guess. The problem is that milliseconds matter here and there's no way to precisely match your own aim with the release, so your shots will always either be unaimed (because you aimed too early) or inaccurate (aimed too late). You can't control your shots without at least a very small, stable window of aiming.

And that is why your point isn't just unproven but also irrelevant.

The part of source code of crpg was about Xynox, not you.

Actually if you noticed, all arrows hit the barrel figure (I just aimed a bit too high because I didn't waste time on training where to aim).

You can cancel the animation as many times as you want but yes, you will have a very small window to have a good accuracy and you will need to wait until your animation finishes. That's the point. You want to play a min-max build with no "cons" and only "pros". That's not how it works. If you want to hold infinite amount of time before shooting - get a crossbow. Otherwise - follow the target with your crosshair to make an accurate shot.

My point was that it's possible to make very accurate shots with this build and release arrow exactly how I said. The time between pressing button and releasing the arrow is exactly the same all the time. So you just need to get used to it and practice to the point when your brain knows when it gets released before you think about it.

Exactly same shit with Arbalest: you press a button to shoot and it releases after a certain time, not instantly. It's because of how animation works, the animation has some "dead" frames that get too long in such animation time scale and you simply don't notice it that bad with faster weapons.


Edit: I still claim that arrow is possible to release at minimum crosshair size and that crosshair jumps a bit after it is a visual bug, yes. Video proves exactly that. I can't share a code because it's hardcoded warband mechanic. Neither Xynox can prove any code because there is none.

[War_Ferret]

No, your video doesn't prove exactly that, lol. Your video proves nothing but how accurate your build is. If you don't understand that, it's your problem.

Next, there is no "window" for accurate aiming. A window is a time span, not a point in time. It's really not that hard. If you miss this point when you can first release the arrow even by 50 milliseconds, you will be even less accurate. It's simply impossible to hit it precisely. You don't have to tell me about crossbow mechanics (or anything else really), because I played every "class" many times. You are completely (and probably intentionally) missing the point throughout. Having no steady aim window as an archer is not a trade-off, it's hardly playable. You have to rely mostly on luck, if you want to hit something and distant targets are basically unhittable. It's very clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It's all just theoretical bullshit. If you would actually play a couple of archer builds, maybe you would understand. Nobody continuously "follows the target" with the crosshair as archer. Sorry, but that is so fucking stupid. Aiming is very strictly timed. And without that steady window, it's pointless, unless you place your cursor in stationary barrel-shooting mode, fucking LOL.

Seriously, play your awesome 30/12 yew bow build. Then play a 24/21 composite bow build and maybe a 27/15 longbow build. Then come back and tell us which one you had most success with. Don't expect to be taken seriously otherwise, because you don't know what you are talking about.

[DaveUKR]

Now reread everything from scratch. I'm not trying to prove that it's the best archer build or it's any good even. I'm trying to point out that it's possible to play this build effectively and it fits its niche. What you and Xynox claim being an issue is not an issue. STR archers are already way too powerful and you want to get rid of one of the most important trade-offs. And if anything - it's not that Yew has to be buffed, it's that the others need to be nerfed. You want to buff something that is already way too powerful. There are plenty of archers who use Yew and show some great results and calling this bow useless only shows that you're bad. There should always be a trade off, and the bigger the gap between other bows - the bigger trade off should be. Otherwise everyone would use the same build+bow.

IMO right now it's exactly the same situation: nobody uses AGI archery because there is no trade-off.
PROs of being STRcher:
- higher damage (i don't even think there is any sense to compare it)
- better armor (with your 30 strength you can wear 45 body armor with NO wpf penalty at all)
- high hp (your 30 str build has 65 hp, even wearing cloth armor you're only possible to oneshot MW arbalest kill on point blank, if wearing any better armor or higher distance - you never get oneshot, you also can't get couchlanced in most cases so it's just ultimate tanky build)
- better melee capabilities (even having 0 PS, 30 strength is already a good enough factor to be able to give a fight)

PROs of being AGIcher:
- basically no valueable PROs
- higher release speed? The difference is so small that it's not worth to mention
- steadier aim? Still not that useful
- better accuracy? STRchers have almost pinpoint accuracy anyway
- kiting capabilities? backpedalling with holding an attack is almost the same speed, jumping distance is the same

With only 5 WM / 139 wpf it's impossible to release an arrow before the reticule has started spreading out again.

My video shows that it's possible even with 4 WM and 121 wpf

No, the damage is a joke.

It's not true, you hit like comparable to heavy crossbow with that build. And it's the most powerful bow build possible.

[War_Ferret]

My video shows that it's possible even with 4 WM and 121 wpf

Despite the shitty frame rate in your video (intentional?), you can still see the crosshair spreading out a little on releasing the arrow. This means there is no window for steady aiming at all. So once again you're producing verbal diarrhea and I'm kinda sick of it.

It's not true, you hit like comparable to heavy crossbow with that build. And it's the most powerful bow build possible.

And your damage calculations are just nonsense. If we still had damage messages in the log, anyone could see it. But as it happens, a balancer told me not long ago that he does about 1 or 2 more damage with MW yew bow and 10 PD than with MW longbow and 9 PD against medium armor. So there's your massive damage, lol.

Everything else has been said. In summary, it can't be emphasized enough that you have no idea what you are talking about. Good bye.