Poll

Ranged cap per team?

Yay
55 (59.1%)
Nay
38 (40.9%)

Total Members Voted: 93

Author Topic: Ranged cap per team  (Read 4183 times)

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Offline Novamere

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 07:11:24 pm »
+1
At this point, might as well just open melee only server since people dont want counterplay anything but melee. I do remember the melee server being rather dead though.

Friday and Saturday nights it was crazy all the archers would be forced to go melee or be alone with 5 people on the normal server while Melee only had 40 lol

Offline kasMVC

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 08:02:52 pm »
+2
Buff range it's so nerfed right now honestly people want to play range because it is super cool why dont you guys go play tekken versus street fighter if you want to do melee????

Offline Leshma

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 08:13:42 pm »
0
And I want 1000 bitcoins.

Offline XyNox

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 08:39:53 pm »
+11
Even at the risk of receiving the usual "nerf ranged", "remove ranged" nonsense, let me try to provoke a reasonable discussion here:

People probably dont know the names of my alts but I very well may have as many combined gens of pure melee in this game as I have with my archer main. So contrary to popular belief, I dont play ranged only and I it is not my gaol to make ranged OP. Not gonna lie, archery is still the main reason I play this game though.

On topic, needless to say, ranged imbalance is an issue that justifiably is a concern as old as the game itself.

People just happen to be interested in medieval warfare as whole and that simply includes ranged, not just 2h dueling. This will not change no matter how weak you make ranged, some people just like playing ranged, period. Discouraging people from playing ranged by simply nerfing the class into the ground though is unfair/poor gamedesign and thus unacceptable.

I can completely agree however that the ability of dealing damage from a distance in a melee centric game should be a privilege that should come at a cost greater than that of melee classes. What that cost is supposed to be is open for discussion, yet it should still allow a competent player to do well with the class. Gold/Upkeep certainly is not a suitable deterrence at this point, which may indicate a new form of currency is needed which should be rewarded for performing well instead of being earned though playtime mostly, which is the case with gold right now. One could think about implementing something like "duty points" when a class does its job properly, e.g. a piker stabbing an incoming horse instead of the inf who is already surrounded by 3 shielders or an archer who targets enemy ranged rather than shooting into melee when both options are present. Just a thought at this point, maybe worth getting deeper into.

Even with all that in mind though, I cant help but notice that the average EU1 player is rarely making any effort to shift the battles in their favour with the tools that are already available.

Everytime I play on EU1, even when one team gets destroyed by ranged for the 5th consecutive round, on the 6th they will usually still go to the exact same open spot again, mindlessly walking around in circles, needlessly exposing themselves to ranged nests. Never bringing siegeshields, never making an effort to protect their own ranged from inf/cav so they can in turn handle or at least suppress the enemy ranged/cav/HA. If the round starts and the melee blob insist on mindlessly sprinting around the map - while splitting up in little groups in the process - without ever looking back to check if teammates need help, just to eventually complete an entire lap around map and ending up at their own spawn again, it is really no wonder that only the fastest 2h and pole will be left alive after 2 min because all their teammates with heavy gear ( such as low ATH - high PD archers with high bow/quiver weight ) got picked off one by one in the first minute of the round. Even in the cases where it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to have ranged in your team due to the enemy having horse ranged, you will still never see the average no-shield melee player willing to stick to his own ranged but rather try to chase down the HA on foot with a greatsword. LOL. Shielders usually are completely oblivious to friendlies trying to hide behind them and will still try to dodge an incoming projectile with the shield up just to save a few shield hitpoints, which in turn gets the friendly behind hit or killed. Minding the line of fire of friendly ranged also seems like rocketscience to the average melee player, who will still insist to charge down an enemy archer even if he has 5 friendly ranged right in his back, effectively blocking all of them to take a shot. And you can bet if this charging melee will get shot ( either by the enemy or friendlies ) he will still be the first to cry about ranged.

I may ask for a lot here since this behavior didnt really change for the past 8 years but there are a load of options available that simply nobody is willing to utilize. Of course, I know, we have a very "special" community with a lot of cool kids who are still at a maturation stage where discriminating a group of players depending on their weapon or class preference is perceived as "strong" and "alpha male" and all that teenager stuff and cooperating with others, especially with ranged in this context, will probably be seen as an infringement of their self-esteem. The next time you get shot to pieces though by 5 archers however, you may want to ask yourself where your own archers are or what the hell you are even doing charging a ranged nest alone with no shield and no friendly ranged backup to give you some suppressing fire. I can only hope nobody expects all their problems getting nerfed away just because they may be too lazy and entitled to adapt/cooperate, since this is not going to happen.

Regardless of the issues stated above, one team having all the ranged and one team having none should obviously not happen. One would have to come to a consensus what should happen with banner stacks. Should class balance ALWAYS override banner balance, as was suggested before ? There also have been some preparations to change maprotation so we dont have to play 10 ranged heavy maps in a row, then 10 cav heavy maps in a row, then 10 narrow street city maps in a row. That may already easy some frustration quite a bit.
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Offline Pawiu

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2018, 09:09:48 pm »
0
I think that you forgot to mention that
now basicaly every corner and most of trees are "ranged nests"
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2018, 09:15:33 pm »
0
Not gonna lie, archery is still the main reason I play this game though.

Stopped reading right there. Go die in a fire and may the urn with your ashes get dumped into a septic hole.
Do you honestly think you have any sort of moral authority, Reyiz? Go genocide some more armenians and deny it ever happened, please, and stay in the middle east.
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2018, 09:22:47 pm »
+3
I think that you forgot to mention that
now basicaly every corner and most of trees are "ranged nests"

First of all, not really, since single ranged is easily charged down alone by inf/cav they tend to stay in groups. We dont have the server pop to make a ranged nest out of every corner and tree on the map.

Second, there are very few maps are not filled with cover of one form or another. So if you are going around a corner with ranged behind:
1) Why are you going around that particular corner and not taking anouther route ?
2) Why are you going first and not behind the safety of a shielder ?
3) Why are you not letting your ranged putting pressure on the enemy ranged first before enganging ?
4) Why are you not bringing a siegeshield to provide cover when it is too scarce in your opinion since you can easily afford it being a poleaxe user ?
5) Why didnt you put like 1 or 2 points you have in IF into shield skill since the loss of HP is almost negligible compared to the benefit of a low lvl shield against ranged ?

Stopped reading right there. Go die in a fire and may the urn with your ashes get dumped into a septic hole.

A formidable example of why balance discussions are not held publicly in this game :D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:26:36 pm by XyNox »
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 09:38:41 pm »
+8
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 09:46:20 pm »
+1
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.

I couldnt agree more, thanks. Unfortunately having this policy for all these years made players develope certain habbits that people have a hard time breaking now or are not even willing to break.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 10:21:28 pm »
+1
I think people are trying to make chess out of rock paper scissors. The game is not and cannot reach "perfect balance" and neither should it be sought after. What we can do find reasons why it is as it is. Why is archery considered so strong, does it not have any natural counters? I hate myself for this, but is cav too weak to deal with archers? Do we need cav buffs to be a constant ultimate threat to ranged? I absolutely hate cav, and consider it the biggest factor in the game to winning currently already, but there are always adjustments that can change things up in order to bring balance. Nerfing archers will not change much as has been repeatedly seen throughout the entirety of this mod. They have had nothing but nerfs and they are still considered a pain.

I generally say shield buffs to make infantry more aware of their survival alternatives, but i can list some cav things that could spice things up though i am ignorant to how to play cav as much as i am as ranged.
More horse speeds faster in general to make awareness difficult. Slightly tankier horses. Bring back lance angles? If possible, make hills less of a movement speed obstacle (is this even possible? Can it be done for infantry too, it would help improve a lot of frustrating aspects).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:25:42 pm by Gravoth_iii »
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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 12:57:31 am »
+1
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.


Yes yes gravoth, ok we got it already, we are all bad shitlords who want everything nerfed to the ground, while you and your spastic clan stacking clanmates, are the best player of c-rpg.

Can you zip your fucking mouth already?


Ranged, all three classes, arent OP, quite the opposite.
The real problem is their numbers, 2-3 archers arent quite a threat, but 6 on the same team are, hence my cap suggestion.

Also, what the fuck is going on with people who compare cavalry to archers? Are you really THAT stupid? You are comparing a class that goes head to head with the enemy, to spastic monkeys that climb roofs.

I demand that I should be put in the balancers team.
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Offline Beleg

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 01:08:01 am »
+4
Sure Panos. All cavs on eu1 definitely go head to head with enemy and don't spend most of their time trying to couch unaware people from behind.

About the thread, basically what xynox said.

I've been playing with my 2h alt mostly nowadays and I so rarely get killed by ranged. I know where enemy ranged gonna be and where they'll focus on. I don't run into their nest like an idiot. Not to sound like an asshole, but if people use their brains a little they won't get shot that often.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 01:16:05 am »
+1

Yes yes gravoth, ok we got it already, we are all bad shitlords who want everything nerfed to the ground, while you and your spastic clan stacking clanmates, are the best player of c-rpg.

Can you zip your fucking mouth already?


Ranged, all three classes, arent OP, quite the opposite.
The real problem is their numbers, 2-3 archers arent quite a threat, but 6 on the same team are, hence my cap suggestion.

Also, what the fuck is going on with people who compare cavalry to archers? Are you really THAT stupid? You are comparing a class that goes head to head with the enemy, to spastic monkeys that climb roofs.

I demand that I should be put in the balancers team.

So you missed the entire point of my post, well i cant say im surprised.
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Offline kasMVC

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 02:36:21 am »
0
If range bothers you just grab a shield or play range the time of the melee my old friend is over you need to come to terms with reality raneg is the superior race


RANGE PRIDE

Offline the real god emperor

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Re: Ranged cap per team
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 03:00:49 am »
+2
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.

Exactly my thoughts.

However, I support an idea of class balance overriding banner balance though.