The Ranged Problem.

[Nightingale]

Crossing out everything that I think is just sarcasm and can be ignored. Please do correct me if there was actually something useful.

The basis for testing in a static environment is so that comparable and reproducible results can be obtained. I did not say that the damage output represented by my amateurish testing reflected 100% true gameplay experience, but there is one thing to note: you will never be able to test in a manner that produces identical results as to what occurs in a public server. Additionally, the sheer number of variables going into damage calculations means that "perfect" balance is never going to be achieved.

I agree; We can never achieve a perfect balance due to the number of calculations going into damage. I also want it to be clear that I never said there was no point to test in a static environment I was just pointing out the things left out and there are many more.

Balance is based upon damage outputs. We can measure how much damage is being done and alter varying factors to further explore the path toward reaching what we believe to be balanced. Now, I understand your argument. You're saying I didn't flesh out all of the other factors that go into ranged damage calculations. Speed bonus, damage falloff due to distance, etc. You are correct, and that's why I didn't make any recommendations regarding the damage values of these weapons because further testing obviously needs to be carried out.

One thing is fundamentally clear: if you meet the strength requirements, you can use a crossbow. Even if you don't have weapon proficiency in crossbows, you can still be deadly with them. In order to play as an archer, you MUST put points into power draw, making you less effective at any other ability that you choose to forsake so that you may use a bow. Crossbows do not require you to give up anything (besides wpf if you want to be pinpoint accurate) in order to be effective so long as you meet a particular crossbow's strength requirement.

I, like you, wouldn't want faulty tests to affect balance in a poor and illogical way. I am glad you agree that a test like the one you did is just the basic groundwork to continue testing. (which Rico and I have already done)

While yes anyone can pick up a xbow if they meet the requirement that is the way it has always been. Not saying its ideal but there are other factors to look at when deciding if someone is a dedicated build or not and sacrifices that people make to increase their ability to project damage from further away. I will not argue with your statement because I have always been fundamentally against no investment xbows being able to produce damage the exact same as someone that clearly makes sacrifices and dedicates to the build for ranged gameplay rather than using it as a sidearm which was a common practice until we increased the slots requirements a year ago? almost 2 years ago? idk can't remember an exact date.

Skillful archers can hit these shots close range. Just because people miss shots doesn't mean that a weapon deals too little or too much damage. This would be more of a question of accuracy, and I highly doubt that you will argue that people miss close-range shots because their reticle stretches from corner to corner of the screen. "We can't change damage values because they're hard to shoot when they juke" is saying that "we need to have all melee weapons 1 shot people because they can block and it is annoying when they block all of my swings." The logic on either situation doesn't add up.

Also, your point assumes that archers are static on the battlefield. Most ranged players utilize the WASD keys to move about the battlefield. If you approach them, they generally will run away from you so they may gain an additional opportunity to fire a shot. I think you'd agree with this because you use this tactic yourself.

Let me explain. As damage increases accuracy decreases (there is no way to counter this) Damage effects both reticle size and weight of invested WPF. While accuracy only effects reticle size.
 If we implemented something like PD on top of this formula you'd have a mess. but I already talked to Professor about PD and the possible options there if it were possible.

What I do is irrelevant and yes range and melee both move on the battlefield thank you for that bit of information I don't know what I would have done without it. *sarcasm aside* Its far more likely a Bowman will get additional shots due to their reload speed and the ability to move while reloading. (Just a thought)

@Grumbs - bolts and steel bolts where made 0 slots to allow the higher tier xbows to utilize 1 slot 2handers and polearms (1handers obviously too) since we increased the slots of xbows to 3 to prevent the higher tier xbows from being used as a sidearm to a great sword or any other 2 slot melee weapon.

Yes, the Zero slot weapons currently available are a bit wonky and crazy to think how they got there. (san+Raylin?  idk) it was to promote less kiting from ranged units didn't exactly agree with that change either.

@Westwood: I didn't throw out his test I was simply saying it was not Ideal which he agrees so you can put away the obvious sarcasm. If you are going to compare bows and xbows then, by all means, go for it but they are only similar in the aspect that they are ranged.

@Kutluhan - We already increased the damage cap to 65 and decreased the HA/HX damage debuff by 10%. We do not want to over buff this class.

Edit: Sorry westwood I normally don't read your full post so I skipped over your spoiler but While that idea is solid I wouldn't know how to impliment it. (Dmg effectively is wpf weight ratio) - unless you are meaning something else.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

holy shit a nerf ranged thread, mod is truly undead 

[Rico]

Someone seems to have punched the number pad to decide the slot requirements for melee weapons. Just scroll down 1 handers and see. 0 slots still pop up 3/4 down the list. Gross Messer 0 slot? What the...You could add some slot requirements on ammo too

Personally, I don't think there should be any 0 slot weapons past Hand Axe, but I'd like to know how the community feels about this before I discuss any changes with other balancers.

[Algarn]

Personally, I don't think there should be any 0 slot weapons past Hand Axe, but I'd like to know how the community feels about this before I discuss any changes with other balancers.

Who'd use the short swords then ? The maces are perhaps overkill, but why would the short swords be rendered useless ?

And about the thread itself, you're literally taking the best case scenario about damage for the bows, most people aren't even using this bow from personal experience. The problem we're facing is an invasion of crossbows, while archery itself is doing barely alright from what I've seen on the servers, from both perspectives of the archer and the victim. I rarely find myself killed by bows, since a torso shot only removes 20% of my hps when it happens (24 str, 7if, 68ba). You also need to consider something else, for archers to any deal damage, they need PD, which affects wpf. This means they can't wear any armor most of the time, nor invest wpf in melee because the overwhelming majority of those points will be spent on archery, which also makes PS investments less effective; add to that the fact you paid such a high price for your 10 PD that you can't escape nor even duel any able player in a melee standoff. All of those penalties affect archers, while on the other hand, you got crossbowmen, able to wear 45+ body armors, to have IF, melee wpf, shittons of agi and still remain accurate enough to snipe you from 50m, and potent enough in 1h/2h to stand a chance against a melee character. If anything, archery isn't in need of another nerf. Add some sort of PD requirement for crossbows and their builds will fall more in line with other ranged builds.

[Rico]

Who'd use the short swords then ? The maces are perhaps overkill, but why would the short swords be rendered useless ?

They were 1 slot in 2012/13 and cheaper on average
They weren't exactly Kuyak level popular, but people did use them

[Algarn]

cheaper on average

We're in 2017, everyone with some playtime has at least 500k of gold in their pockets. Price isn't a factor in anything nowadays, effectiveness is. If price actually mattered, you'd see way less armored players around.

[Butan]

There was 2 quite good crossbows users camping on an unreachable tower 10-20 meters away from most of the melee in a strategus siege yesterday, reaching quite high score... is this why this thread was created?

[BlindGuy]

No I think thread was created because ranged was destroying everything on EU1 for several hours till the server pop all left, just like it killed the mod originally. We can thank all the En Dottirs of the community for this: when we had spent 2 years balancing ranged they joined the community, wanted to make a clan of dedicated archers, but did not like that they were not immediately veteran level players and campaigned night and day for 6 months to have their accuracy and damage increased, their range of sidearms increased,  and the sacrifice they made was.... ammo count was slightly reduced, at a time when even with reduced ammo you could still carry more arrows then there were players on server....


Just MO tho Butan

[the real god emperor]

The thought of "everything should be able to counter everything" was wrong in the first place, cRPG is a team game, you shouldn't be able to outrange a cav that has succesfully ganked you with  a short sword after shooting all the infantry that is desperately dodging around. You have to pick one.

[Torben]

just give back old lance angel and everything will fall into place.

wink wink ^.-

[Westwood]

There was no sarcasm in my previous post.

[Butan]

No I think thread was created because ranged was destroying everything on EU1 for several hours till the server pop all left

I wasnt aware EU1 was active! Maybe it was the same xbowmen, Ulfur and Skan?

[Blackbow]

BAN DEM ALL

[Rico]

We're in 2017, everyone with some playtime has at least 500k of gold in their pockets. Price isn't a factor in anything nowadays

it will be again

[Ikarus]

EDIT: nvm seems to be a bug

(click to show/hide)

- Arbalest needs 2 slots
- +3 Steel Bolts need 2 slots now aswell

and I'm all like

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well that's a hard pill to swallow, those loomed steel bolts are now useless for me, I have to switch back to +0 Steel Bolts (which only need 1 slot). Would be cool to know when exactly the bolts need 1 slot more (+1? +2?)

I'll still play xbow, simply because I don't have anywhere else to go. But if it helps making the game more fair, so be it

but you better heavily nerf archery and throwing aswell now

EDIT: holy fuck Arbalest is also way less accurate  I think it's more viable to switch to archery/throwing now and simply go for headshots

Arba with 150 wpf on xbow is still a shotgun now