free zottlmarsch

[Bittersteel]

I've only explained the exact source of the ban (because some called it baseless) , I didn't try to justify the ban itself aside from pointing out that some of your outrage is weird, not all but as always, you're on the spectrum. I've had no hand in zottl's ban, and I can understand where  both of the sides are coming from. Keep in mind however that, effectively, zottl is not banned from the game, merely the forum. Again, a confusing choice but it appears much less harmful than if he was to be banned from the game.

Yes, Zottl is only banned from the forum and not the game which makes no sense at all. Can't really blame James for that though, he couldn't give two shits about it really except to quickly get a reason to get him quiet. Explain to me why Zottl is banned from the forum and how it makes sense. Does the rules state that you only get banned from the forums  for selling looms? You know why he got banned, and it's a shame you're defending this decision simply because James and you are in the same boat. It's as easy as admitting you (James) made a mistake and unban him. Then we can move on.

This is actually more harmful then if he was simply banned ingame. It makes you all look incompetent, I believe it's very important that the community have faith in the devs.

I've not made sense of anything yet, which is what I said - it's a process, Tybalt. I don't think calling my replies pathetic is exactly helping the exchange, but I guess that's just frustration.

Personally, I think that we could've avoided this entire shitshow if we would've had some rule in regards to limitation of the period of punishability for breaking rules - it's a bit dumb to chase after things that happened 2 years ago or so.

I agree, great input. Implement it a week ago.

Shanxi, meanwhile what you quoted could very well be someone else using James' avatar and steam name to forge evidence, yet I'm not doubting you . I wouldn't lie to you regarding there being data in the logs, if there wasn't any I'd be on the forefront to unban zottl, even if he's a krems. I've refrained from posting it by advice of other devs.

What? James and Zottl has both admitted (by your own logic) to have dealt with looms with outside goods. He doesn't even deny it yet you do?

This was when havelle asked me for money for wine and I offered to give it to him for free. Also before I was made aware of the rule by dupre.

I really can't differ from the two situations, what makes one bannable while the other one doesn't? Apart from James being in the dev team of course.

Why have you been deleting posts btw? Genuine question.

I hope you can undo this, restore some of your credibility and the devs and the community can move forward to make a real revival of cRPG.

[The Last Ironside REDGAR]

(click to show/hide)

I really can't differ from the two situations, what makes one bannable while the other one doesn't? Apart from James being in the dev team of course.


Why have you been deleting posts btw? Genuine question.

I hope you can undo this, restore some of your credibility and the devs and the community can move forward to make a real revival of cRPG.

"Explain to me why Zottl is banned from the forum and how it makes sense. "

Same reason why havelle and jona are banned as well, the eurocuck's ass is still sore after getting rammed by so much muslim dick on the reg that then when havelle zottl or jona came in with some ass whooping it pushed the pansy over the edge and he dropped the ban hammer on them without a second thought. had to preserve his precious safe space even if it meant making up all his own rules and punishments. time to get someone who isnt a cuck to moderate the forums. also rofl, "he is banned on the forums but not in the game for committing a game related offense." fucking rofl, how idiotic can someone be? if he was banned from the game then so be it, he 'broke the rules' and whatnot. but being banned on the forums for something related to the game? loool.

[Athelar]

Shanxi, meanwhile what you quoted could very well be someone else using James' avatar and steam name to forge evidence, yet I'm not doubting you . I wouldn't lie to you regarding there being data in the logs, if there wasn't any I'd be on the forefront to unban zottl, even if he's a krems. I've refrained from posting it by advice of other devs.

Great, so James' action he admittedly said he commited (except from actually saying he gave it for free for wine, which we can't trust for sure without real evidence) without any involvement of looms, you're trying to deny it?

This was when havelle asked me for money for wine and I offered to give it to him for free. Also before I was made aware of the rule by dupre.

[Asheram]

We should all show our support and say we sold looms for moolah, he can't ban us all right?
The WHOLE Chinese server should be banned right Yuang said they all sell looms for ca$h..

[Uther Pendragon]

Why is he banned from the forum - apparently James assumed it also translated into a ban in-game. To be fair, we've never used that option before lol

About the limitations on pushability - I guess we'll add it officialy in some time soon, about time on this one.

About that quote from steam - I am trying to reach some english manual for warband with the EULA to finally see how it actually looks like in the fine print, because if we're gonna be pedantic, there is a distinction between punishability of "sale" and "buying", and so far I cannot find any direct source to this rule, aside from M&B Napoleonic Wars manual, though I would not be surprised if it was similiar if not exact same EULA for Warband. Assuming that would be the case, as a Licensee (you don't own your copy), you could not in any way profit from something you do not own, including selling parts of it, which would fall under the definition of Software Product (modified items, software - a loom would be, I guess, an amount of data manifested as an item in-game, which still falls under modified files category). However, this is slowly going into some autistic territory and a waste of time for all of us. I'll just contact James either today or tomorrow and figure out where to go with this entire shebang.

Just for the record, Havelle is staying banned because of his in-game fuckery in months past (literal ban-avoiding that we had issues controlling, very nasty behaviour, his forum permaban should've happened much much earlier, and was simply overlooked)

Why have you been deleting posts btw? Genuine question.

I deleted your 2 posts for my personal amusement, kinda like how I changed your chocolate chip cookie documentary links to link to some feminist documentaries. Also to hear about your spergouts in krems group chat

I also deleted either one of Oberyn's goodbye posts, just to see him sperg out one last time in Discord, said short spergout which I then also deleted.

I hope you can undo this, restore some of your credibility and the devs and the community can move forward to make a real revival of cRPG.

The first response to the big patch was essentialy a "You fucked up." with no words of appreciation or understanding for months of agonizing begging and reminding and annoying chadz & others to finally gain the rights and access to cRPG so we could finally try and fix it. I don't think it's much to ask for some "heh nice job tbh" instead of what Professor recieved for his patch. There's absolutely nothing more demotivating than working a thankless task, and this is what it essentaily turned out to be. Doesn't mean either him or James or me are gonna just drop it now, and I don't say that we require compliments or some shit, just remember the human.

-snip-

I don't quite see why we should talk that way? 

[Bittersteel]

Why is he banned from the forum - apparently James assumed it also translated into a ban in-game. To be fair, we've never used that option before lol

About the limitations on pushability - I guess we'll add it officialy in some time soon, about time on this one.

Yes, I can imagine it's hard to know what you're doing when you go on an autistic ban spree.

About that quote from steam - I am trying to reach some english manual for warband with the EULA to finally see how it actually looks like in the fine print, because if we're gonna be pedantic, there is a distinction between punishability of "sale" and "buying", and so far I cannot find any direct source to this rule, aside from M&B Napoleonic Wars manual, though I would not be surprised if it was similiar if not exact same EULA for Warband. Assuming that would be the case, as a Licensee (you don't own your copy), you could not in any way profit from something you do not own, including selling parts of it, which would fall under the definition of Software Product (modified items, software - a loom would be, I guess, an amount of data manifested as an item in-game, which still falls under modified files category). However, this is slowly going into some autistic territory and a waste of time for all of us. I'll just contact James either today or tomorrow and figure out where to go with this entire shebang.

The rule clearly states

Using goods outside cRPG* (real money, real items, stuff in other games, ...)  as trading currency for goods in cRPG is not allowed and might lead to the suspension of your account.

as *TRADING* currency,
 that obviously includes both buying and selling. That's a cRPG made rule. Yes, the EULA does not allow for things to be sold under the license, it doesn't overrule further rules made however. It says nothing about teamkilling in the EULA, are those cRPG rules suddenly made obsolete?


Just for the record, Havelle is staying banned because of his in-game fuckery in months past (literal ban-avoiding that we had issues controlling, very nasty behaviour, his forum permaban should've happened much much earlier, and was simply overlooked)

I deleted your 2 posts for my personal amusement, kinda like how I changed your chocolate chip cookie documentary links to link to some feminist documentaries. Also to hear about your spergouts in krems group chat

This is what we're dealing with folks. It comes as no surprise that James would do the things he have done when another 3rd of the dev team deletes posts for his own "personal amusement". My "spergouts" in the krems chat include "I believe Uther is deleting posts"
 and calling your behavior retarded. Get a grip, holy shit.

I also deleted either one of Oberyn's goodbye posts, just to see him sperg out one last time in Discord, said short spergout which I then also deleted.

Yeah, that's some funny shenanigans dude, do you realise that you're, knowingly or not, pushing people away from cRPG?

The first response to the big patch was essentialy a "You fucked up." with no words of appreciation or understanding for months of agonizing begging and reminding and annoying chadz & others to finally gain the rights and access to cRPG so we could finally try and fix it. I don't think it's much to ask for some "heh nice job tbh" instead of what Professor recieved for his patch. There's absolutely nothing more demotivating than working a thankless task, and this is what it essentaily turned out to be. Doesn't mean either him or James or me are gonna just drop it now, and I don't say that we require compliments or some shit, just remember the human.

I'm sorry no one is seeing you as demi-gods for taking upon you the time in your lifes to do this righteous tasks but you should have seen it coming. This community has been like this for 7 years. You'll get praise from those who approve and "hate" (mild criticism really) from those who do not.

I don't quite see why we should talk that way? 

[Casul]

This thread


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[Leshma]

Not selling looms for real money falls under common sense rule but sadly, common sense wasn't so common in cRPG community both on player on admin side.

First chadz decided to give incentives to backers in form of cRPG items which can be considered as breaking said rule. Then butthurt Panos (cmp perma'ed him cuz he doesn't like him) decided to tell that story on taleworlds forum. Then bunch of people butthurt over various issues decided to sell looms,  At some point in time black market consisting of cRPG items was established. Since then mod died, came from the dead, got its rotten skull blasted couple of times and risen again. Out of seven years shenanigans regarding cRPG items happened between first and fourth year.

Then comes question of morality. Is it bad selling in game items for money? I think it is and that's why I never attempted it. Actually I  did give some items in return for Melee: Battlegrounds licence key but that was fictional like most of the XP I've earned as a player. Never got the key from chadz which means I never traded items for real life currency (if key for failed kickstarter project can be called as something of value).

Why is selling items bad? Because it is done by players and not so called owner of the IP. It's legal bullshit. Gold farmers selling money is perceived as bad but Blizzard selling gold boosters is fine. Selling cRPG items is mostly forbidden because modders fear lawsuit coming their way from owners of the IP, which are represented by some legal firm and so on. Intellectual property laws were conceived as a way to  protect inventors but in reality, those rights have been sold to numerous specialized firms which trade with those IPs and sue anyone given the opportunity. Because of people not caring, that became a fact of life and must be treated as such.

No selling of cRPG looms cuz project owners can get in trouble, that's the bottom line.

[McKli_PL]

@Cassu
omfg so much cocaine! 

[Leshma]

About that quote from steam - I am trying to reach some english manual for warband with the EULA to finally see how it actually looks like in the fine print, because if we're gonna be pedantic, there is a distinction between punishability of "sale" and "buying", and so far I cannot find any direct source to this rule, aside from M&B Napoleonic Wars manual, though I would not be surprised if it was similiar if not exact same EULA for Warband. Assuming that would be the case, as a Licensee (you don't own your copy), you could not in any way profit from something you do not own, including selling parts of it, which would fall under the definition of Software Product (modified items, software - a loom would be, I guess, an amount of data manifested as an item in-game, which still falls under modified files category). However, this is slowly going into some autistic territory and a waste of time for all of us. I'll just contact James either today or tomorrow and figure out where to go with this entire shebang.

EULA is made up document created by owners of IP to serve as some sort of gentlemanly agreement between user and provider of service. In reality, it is mostly used to threaten people not to do something which owner of IP finds to be undesirable behavior. Given enough resources and right environment, any EULA can be obliterated in court. Enough money, time and government laws that aren't supportive of EULA and it goes away. German/Swiss court and semi persistent user can win against any EULA. Steam EULA is mostly bullshit like 95% of things Valve does but there was never large enough push to bring Valve to any decent court, to make them bleed money by paying fines for running fishy business. When I learned what Valve does I've stopped using their service and buying games on Steam. Would rather give my money to Sony, even tho I'm not a fan of theirs.

Real reason why most people take EULAs seriously is because they fear the context of EULA and are afraid of being sued by rich companies. Like in Germany when some law firms send you the letter asking for money for downloading torrents. Many people cave in and pay the sum but semi innocent person given resources can blast those fuckers on court and make them pay for extortion.

Most of above does not apply to American legal system.

[the real god emperor]

Healthiest solution is unbanning him. I know you guys are trying to stand behind your decision until the end, but it REALLY makes no sense to ban anyone for this on current period of time. Especially a forum ban, for that matter. Also Uther, you mentioned that forum ban is less harmful than an ingame ban, I disagree, I wouldn't give two shits about an ingame ban right now, but would be upset if I got banned on forums. You guys need to acknowledge that c-RPG is less than %50 of this board now. Accepting your mistakes requires more balls than standing behind your wrong decision.

[Yeldur]

Time for me to make a more serious post

This whole situation is completely stupid and needs to be fixed. Let's explain why:

First of all, if Zottl has broken a rule that is punishable with a permanent ban, he should be banned from the forums, in game, and through the c-rpg website. He is, however, not. He's only banned through the forum, which is wrong. Either enforce your rules or don't, stop half heartedly enforcing them. Rules are set in stone, the job of an administrator is to enforce the rules set by the owner of the server, or, the one who has been given the job of creating said rules, your job is also deciding what punishment is suitable and what is not, it would be completely illogical and stupid to enforce a ban on someone somewhere else other than just enforcing it as a whole, it's like me finding someone has broken a rule on NA 1 so I ban him from EU 1, it makes no sense what so ever and is a very stupid and embarrassing way to administrate. I'm not saying that mistakes don't happen, this is very blatantly one of those mistakes which wasn't properly thought through. I can understand from your perspective that you don't want to go back on what has been done as you've already fought tooth and nail for it, but, to be completely honest guys, by enforcing this awfully thought out punishment, you ruin all the respect people have for you as admins, I once called you the best Admin I've ever met Uther, and you defending this form of punishment is hurting that opinion that I have of you. I'm not saying that my opinion matters at all and you may not care, but I care about C-RPG, and the one way to fuck this games revival is to lose the respect of your playerbase.

On to the main point, in terms of fixing this, I get that you guys are a small team, and I get that you guys may want to punish Zottl, that's fine, he admitted  to breaking a rule, whether he meant that as a joke or not is up to him, not me. I've adminned for about 3 years on the PW module as well as managing a team of Admins years ago in another game, that however is another ballpark; in this situation, coming from an Admins perspective here, not the retarded Krems inside me, just admit you were wrong. We're not going to hate you or lose respect for you just because you admit that in this instance, the punishment handed out was wrong, if anything, I would actually GAIN respect for you. A good Admin team knows when to admit that they have made a mistake, and in this case, I think it would be highly insulting to call this anything BUT a mistake.

I'm not here to insult you guys or belittle you guys for anything here, my aim isn't to annoy you guys or piss you off, I'm here to offer a perspective. I'm not sure how much experience either of you guys have in Administration but I do think you guys need to step back and look at this from an unbias standpoint. Look at both sides, can you not see how illogical it seems for a player to be banned from the forums because of action that is in relation to the GAME itself. If I was racist in game I would be banned from the game and be left on the forum, correct? That's how this works. The forum is here to be separate from the game, not to be an alternative form of half-hearted punishment.

Whether you guys want to listen to me or not is up to you, I'm simply talking from an Administrators viewpoint from OUTSIDE the team. I might be a retard sometimes (Ok fine 99% of the time) but stuff like this just pisses me off, I expect more from an Admin team personally.

Edit: Just also realised you guys have already admitted that the punishment was a mistake, if James thought it translated to a ban in game that's fair enough, what matters now is what you choose to do with that, you guys either need to ban zottl in game or unban him. Simple as that.
Edit2: Also just realised you guys have been deleting posts because you wanted to, not because of some rule that was broken, just because you felt like it. Another great way to throw the respect of your playerbase down the drain. You guys are trying to rebuild a dead community here and are doing it by treating them like shit. If you treat one person like shit then what's going to stop you doing that to the rest of your playerbase? Decide on whether you want to ACTUALLY build a community here or if you want to abuse your power and delete posts because you found it funny. It's not funny and it's not okay to blatantly misuse your power because you want to, that's just plain disrespectful and sad.

[Xant]

Lul admins permabanning people for shit they're doing themselves, and now admitting to deleting posts for the lulz

crpg best admins 2017

[Asheram]

I deleted your 2 posts for my personal amusement, kinda like how I changed your chocolate chip cookie documentary links to link to some feminist documentaries. Also to hear about your spergouts in krems group chat

This is what we're dealing with folks. It comes as no surprise that James would do the things he have done when another 3rd of the dev team deletes posts for his own "personal amusement". My "spergouts" in the krems chat include "I believe Uther is deleting posts"
 and calling your behavior retarded. Get a grip, holy shit.

I also deleted either one of Oberyn's goodbye posts, just to see him sperg out one last time in Discord, said short spergout which I then also deleted.

Yeah, that's some funny shenanigans dude, do you realise that you're, knowingly or not, pushing people away from cRPG?

You are right that was a poor prank he should have moved your posts to some obscure unrelated thread that would have  been funny.😀

[Bittersteel]

Healthiest solution is unbanning him. I know you guys are trying to stand behind your decision until the end, but it REALLY makes no sense to ban anyone for this on current period of time. Especially a forum ban, for that matter. Also Uther, you mentioned that forum ban is less harmful than an ingame ban, I disagree, I wouldn't give two shits about an ingame ban right now, but would be upset if I got banned on forums. You guys need to acknowledge that c-RPG is less than %50 of this board now. Accepting your mistakes requires more balls than standing behind your wrong decision.

+1 It takes balls to admit your wrongdoings, no one will think less of you for that.