Author Topic: Buff more than Nerf  (Read 955 times)

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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Buff more than Nerf
« on: May 06, 2017, 11:45:16 am »
+7

Heres a solid video for you stoners in the mess that crpg became, and still to this day people will think that nerfs helped crpg. Its kind of depressing that one of my favourite games turned out this way, but has become a prime example for me to use for arguing balancing in any other game. Even in the comments on the video you will see people defending the idea of nerfing.
I wish i had the same knowledge back in early crpg as i do know so that i could feriociously argue against all the nerf threads, but i was but a wee little lad then who played only the game and not the forum.

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Offline IR_Kuoin

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 01:07:32 pm »
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Nerfing and buffing to maintain "balance" is like when you press two repelling magnets together, one is is always gonna slide out and generate complaints and whining.
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Offline Prpavi

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 10:24:29 pm »
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Nerfing is sometimes needed, but buffs are always prefered, except for the HC roleplay crowd.
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Xant

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 10:25:31 pm »
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Nerfing is way easier. Takes less time, less likely to break stuff, less need to tinker with 1000 things at once to get back to balance. If one thing is out of balance, then just bring it back to be on par with other stuff, don't try to put everything else on par with the overpowered thing. You'll just end up breaking more things and working for years to achieve the balance you could've achieved with one nerf.

And what about things like throwing lances? At their worst, they were extremely accurate one-hit kills from retarded distances. Should everything be that OP? No, clearly not. It'd mean you'd get randomly instagibbed from all kinds of no-skill things.

That video had some of the shittiest arguments I've heard.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 10:36:05 pm by Xant »
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 10:44:31 pm »
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Nerfing is way easier. Takes less time, less likely to break stuff, less need to tinker with 1000 things at once to get back to balance. If one thing is out of balance, then just bring it back to be on par with other stuff, don't try to put everything else on par with the overpowered thing. You'll just end up breaking more things and working for years to achieve the balance you could've achieved with one nerf.

And what about things like throwing lances? At their worst, they were extremely accurate one-hit kills from retarded distances. Should everything be that OP? No, clearly not. It'd mean you'd get randomly instagibbed from all kinds of no-skill things.

At the time of throwing being absolutely crazy powerful the balancing may have been a bit over the top. But at that time i also had an incredible amount of fun, and i was playing a super light armored build so basically everything one shot me. If i played around throwing and got into some melee fights i could fuck people up with incredibly fast footwork and spear spam. The range balance could be questioned at the time, but the melee was imho super enjoyable with all its "broken" mechanics like machinegun 2h stab, polestagger and floorstabbing spears.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 01:32:36 am »
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Seen it already. While buffing should be preferred, sometimes, games designers get drunk and put retarded things in their game, like R8 in csgo. While extremely powerful stuff for everyone may create a higher skill celling in some cases, it often lowers the skill floor significantly, allowing people to get high rewards without any kind of proper in-game experience. The latest CoD is a prime example, from the short footage I saw, the TTK is so low (for all weapons) and with so little recoil for the weapons it screams "casual". Same goes for SW: Battlefront, the weapons have endless ammo, characters regenerate entirely in 1 second after they are out of the fight for 5 seconds or something, and they got overpowered gadgets as well as a grenade to throw every 10 seconds with little fuse time and a super short animation. The funniest example of what I mean is BF1, where a couple of weapons have more than 70% of the usage time, and the rest are used like 3 to 5% of the time. Sure, the underused weapons could use a buff, but I wonder how weird the game would become with every weapon being as overpowered as the automatico (900RPM smg, in WW1 era where most of the guns don't scratch above 600 RPM). You just can't buff everything until it gets broken, otherwise it's a casual fest as a described earlier. The only exception I see to that are tactical shooters as Squad or Insurgency, with extremely fast TTK, but that's another story, since it takes in account other parameters such as map balance for example.

For me though, cRPG had an almost perfect balance in 2012, where almost every build and class was potent enough to be used well, and had their counters for the most part. Then the devs kept blanket nerfing everything that wasn't pure melee infantry with a good load of agility, effectively killing the game for many people who either saw their favorite playstyle nerfed, couldn't be arsed to trade their useless items on the marketplace or to grind for more gear.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 01:36:10 am by Algarn »

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 02:34:44 am »
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Well thats how it goes for shooters at least, shooters have a lot of different elements they need to focus on to make the interesting and competitive. I dont play shooters much at all, i pretty much hate the genre as it is currently. CS already hit a good peak of its balance, its difficult to aim but most of the guns are incredibly dangerous. Obviously many of them arent even being used, but that doesnt matter since the main guns are fun enough on their own.
Call of Duty games always had balance issues with certain guns always being way better than others, but fortunately theyve generally kept the guns that way. Still i used to love the shittier weapons, just to try making them work with their unique traits that generally sucked. (CoD4 and MW2 are still the most loved ones, and both of those had a ton of "op" guns to chose from)

You cant buff guns to insane levels without adding gameplay elements to even it out, the same way you cant buff melee weapons in crpg to the point that they just kill instantly with no retaliation possible. Cod is the casual path of the balancing, a lot of fun because everything is incredibly good, but casual because everything is easy to use so that even the shittiest players can just spray and win.
CS is the more competitively balanced game with tricky spread patterns to consider in counter weight to how fast the guns kill.


It seems that it always ends up being way more fun with low TTK in pretty much all kinds of games. Pushing lower TTKs while also pushing elements to make it more difficult to pull them off is the optimal balancing idea in my mind.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 01:09:28 pm »
+2
The latest CoD is a prime example, from the short footage I saw, the TTK is so low (for all weapons) and with so little recoil for the weapons it screams "casual"
This is why CoD sucks now. CoD1 had fairly high TTK (2-3 chest shots with ARs), and massive recoil for all full-auto rifles that could kill from long range. Best balanced game ever.

Then came CoD4 (although really the casualization started with CoD2) and it's just so easy. There's almost no difference between a pretty good player and a really good player because you have full auto guns that kill in 1-2 hits and that have zero recoil. It also means that a camper will always win.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2017, 06:20:01 pm »
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This is why CoD sucks now. CoD1 had fairly high TTK (2-3 chest shots with ARs), and massive recoil for all full-auto rifles that could kill from long range. Best balanced game ever.

Then came CoD4 (although really the casualization started with CoD2) and it's just so easy. There's almost no difference between a pretty good player and a really good player because you have full auto guns that kill in 1-2 hits and that have zero recoil. It also means that a camper will always win.

The only skill in cod atm is map control and spawn awareness. But it has been removed in later games, cod 4 you could completely dominate a team at times, but after that spawns became more random and spread so that it wasnt possible anymore, and so the game lost even more skillbase.


Primary game that has been very impressive as far as balancing goes has been Dota 2. Very minor nerfs, and sooo many buffs. Every single major patch is hype because they always modify different heroes to suddenly be incredibly viable.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 06:25:08 pm by Gravoth_iii »
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 09:02:14 am »
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Primary game that has been very impressive as far as balancing goes has been Dota 2. Very minor nerfs, and sooo many buffs. Every single major patch is hype because they always modify different heroes to suddenly be incredibly viable.

Yeah Dota goes to extremes when rebalancing. Buffs all around and it actually works in most patches.

Offline njames89

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 02:14:21 pm »
+1
Buff longsword tbphwyf

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff more than Nerf
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 06:29:40 pm »
+1
Booo, longsword. Sword of Tears/cookies used to be weapons fit for gods.
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