Donkey team no longer developing M:BG / OKAM

[njames89]

I don't know whats wrong with me but I am still supporting OKAM. I think I feel like its a special needs game or something.

[Gravoth_iii]

ROFL you guys were real supportive when NASA was making a mission to Mars, but you all showed your true colours when they started making a submarine. - I'm still trying to understand what's hilarious about the fact you're just now learned that people react differently to a different set of circumstances. Well done for noticing?

In the end thats what trolling is all about, and donkeycrew always were top trolls. Not that it was intended this time, but butthurt outcome was just as good from my PoV. I just enjoy peoples genuine butthurt, a krems should know considering ive been feeding it to them for whatever duration during the end of crpg.

[Vibe]

Incredibly subjective post, Ramses.

I didn't for a second doubt you believe OKAM holds more promise. Or that it's combat is better than it's competition. But it's just that, it's your beliefs.

However I keep seeing this word being thrown around, promise. Potential. Sure, it can become the greatest game ever. Heck, some african kid that lives in a shack and has nothing could become the greatest US president as well. You guys continue ignoring the factors however. We were never talking about OKAM earning more money than Mount&Blade. We were talking about financial feasibility, from a business standpoint. How feasible this project actually is, considering all the objective factors: current popularity and playerbase, sales, steam and other reviews, dev size, release timing and first impressions (very important in this time and age), previous playerbase and of course competition. That's not even counting all the bad reputation the game already has, all the broken promises and dev team sacking (why the game was supported by cRPG playerbase in the first place), the complete failure and 180 on the most promising and hyped part of the game (the open world) and the subsequent disappointement of everyone.

Counting all that and looking at it realistically and objectively, it actually doesn't hold much promise. It HELD some promise before EA release, before we knew what the situation was with it, now it doesn't anymore. Not for the world outside the OKAM bubble, at least. Even before it was evident that what they set for their goals was much beyond their capabilities, working and financial. I scolded myself already for thinking it was possible, I should've known better. But there is no anger now, nor resentment really. To be honest even my disappointement is mild in comparison to some other people, I guess I didn't expect that much from them. However the fact that the main webpage still claims that The Epic IS a feature in OKAM is absolutely scummy, deplorable and shameful, more so when they know about it and are unwilling to do anything about it due to not being a good "marketing decision". I'm willing to shitpost OKAM here and there just because of that. Doesn't take much effort even, seeing as the OKAM team does most of the work on that department themselves. Just look at the patch notes, laughable.

In any case, to me it looks like most of the people who ever had hopes for OKAM have simply moved on. What good is strategus v2 if there's no people. If people really wanted another strategus, wouldn't they just be playing cRPG strategus?
There was an attempt by DC, they failed. That pretty much sums up this story. There's this corpse of an attempt being kept on life support by investors for unknown reasons, until they see the project is not financially feasible and plug the cord out.

[njames89]

But it's just that, it's your beliefs.

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[RamsesXXIIX]

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TLDR you're going to continue trying to flog a shit game on false pretenses no matter how many of the people who purchase the game hate it and regret their purchase. You're a real hero.

In the below analogy you're the chef of this restaurant that will be forced to close in 1 year if it doesnt get enough customers:

If any aspect of this game was objectively better, it would get a fraction of the players those other games do. Especially the games that only have multiplayer combat as their selling point. You're just sitting there telling 90% of all buyers that they dont know what real italian pizza tastes like whilst you cram raw dough down their throats.

Here you go again with half-truths and mind reading. You continue to believe that I am somehow only trying to promote the game despite both my actions (if you had bothered to research them) and my direct words. How about you stop pretending to read my mind and just listen to me for once.

I am not hoping because of blind faith to the new devs in Okam, I am hoping based on the actions, words, visions and abilities of the new devs of Okam and I have little to no hope for BL to provide what I want in a mp game based on their publications, their past game titles, their statements and their lack of advertisement for any expanded multiplayer gameplay.

When are you gonna stop mischaracterizing my views and opinions based on your own faulty assertions of the same? I do not run around, trying to drag your name through the dirt because of some perceived wrong-doing. I must have really burned you somehow and I have no idea what imaginary crime I have committed in your brain.

As to the merit of your argument, look up argumentum ad populum and you can see why you're wrong.

@Vibe You're still talking about economics, whether you call it financial feasibility or ability to make more money. That is all still economy.  I talked about promise for me as a mp game. We can continue to talk past each other all day long, or you can engage with my argument.

As for the information on both steam and the website, I've been lobbying for months for the devs to change, what have you been doing? Sitting in this forum, circle-jerking eachother on how horrible the game is? Move on or do something about it, I can't stand empty whining.

We have no idea if strategus in Okam will be a failure before we give it a try. It might be that many people have left - but I know of several others simply waiting for Okam to release strat, including many of the major clans. BL will most likely not even attempt a more persistant mp, so I'll take my chances with Okam. If it fails - so be it. Unlike what you guys think, I'm not that invested into it (I was before the DC left). But I heavily doubt any other medieval war game will ever come close to gathering my interest after this, the rest of them are garbage to me.

And aye, its my belief. But its based on objective factors, unlike most of the criticism I'm hearing from you and the people in this forum. "I've heard from several players" - is not objective at all. Also, if I'm wrong about these objective factors, I'm willing to change my belief. Can you truly claim the same? If so, challenge me on the objective side of the game and lets see if you have thought out or examined the roots of your beliefs.

[Molly]

tl;dr all Ramses posts.

Probably calls everyone in disagreement a 'snowflake' and tries to sell his personal opinion as 'facts'.
Been there, seen it, boring.

[njames89]

tl;dr all Ramses posts.

Probably calls everyone in disagreement a 'snowflake' and tries to sell his personal opinion as 'facts'.
Been there, seen it, boring.

Hey that's my shtick you cuck

[Gravoth_iii]

Youre just getting yourself caught in the witch hunt Ramses. Dont bother with any sort of middle ground at the moment, the 180 turn of the playerbase is really enhanced with how hyped up it got.

[Vibe]

@Vibe You're still talking about economics, whether you call it financial feasibility or ability to make more money. That is all still economy.  I talked about promise for me as a mp game. We can continue to talk past each other all day long, or you can engage with my argument.

And as I said right in my first sentence, I can understand that OKAM holds promise for you. I was talking about OKAM's general promise.

As for the information on both steam and the website, I've been lobbying for months for the devs to change, what have you been doing? Sitting in this forum, circle-jerking eachother on how horrible the game is? Move on or do something about it, I can't stand empty whining.

Oh, so it's my job now to do something about all the lies? Yes, we are cirle-jerking on how horrible the game is, pretty much the only thing the game can be used for. The game has reached this meme status on how horribly an indie dev project can go wrong. The circkle jerk has more players than the actual game, can you imagine! I paid for the game, I reserve all the right to shit on it as much as I want.

And aye, its my belief. But its based on objective factors, unlike most of the criticism I'm hearing from you and the people in this forum. "I've heard from several players" - is not objective at all. Also, if I'm wrong about these objective factors, I'm willing to change my belief. Can you truly claim the same? If so, challenge me on the objective side of the game and lets see if you have thought out or examined the roots of your beliefs.

I never claimed that "I've heard from several players" was objective. In fact, I specifically said in that exact post what can really be counted as objective, while the rest is all subjective. And yeah, I am willing to change my belief based on objective factors, but I don't think you realize which factors are indeed objective.

[njames89]

I paid for the game, I reserve all the right to shit on it as much as I want.

Basically how I feel aswell. I only own this game (and several copies of it at that) because of the fraudulent trailers and lies about what was included in early access. If shitposting is the only value I get out of the game its better than nothing.

I respect that they are working to add strategic map but at this point there is no reason to play the game. And shitposting with the boys is always entertaining.

[RamsesXXIIX]

tl;dr all Ramses posts.

Probably calls everyone in disagreement a 'snowflake' and tries to sell his personal opinion as 'facts'.
Been there, seen it, boring.

aye thats it, don't bother with engaging with anyones argument, just invent some excuse based on one arguably true statement. Well done 

Youre just getting yourself caught in the witch hunt Ramses. Dont bother with any sort of middle ground at the moment, the 180 turn of the playerbase is really enhanced with how hyped up it got.

Yea they have been really burned. I think I said my piece, will prop leave after this last reply.

@Vibe

I'm not taking that right away, I just think you are wasting your time arguing a moot point to an echo-chamber of people who will basically agree with all you say and never challenge you.

And for the record, people do still play the game. Yesterday there was a peak amount of 39 players. How many are in this forum, circle-jerking? Molly, Heskey, Kuion, James and you Vibe. 5 people.

And for the record - yes my opinion is subjective but its based on objective factors, as such making it less influenced by the biases that everyone seems to have here.

Okam has a more complex and indepth armour/damage calculation.
Okam has more attack directions
Okam has hitboxes more closely aligned to the characters. (You have simply gotten used to the ridiculousness of WB hitboxes but not yet Okams) .
Okam doesn't have the stun of polearm overhead, severly limiting the possibility of 2v1 on a competitive level in WB.
Okams animation sweetspot are more balanced and the difference in reach is not nearly as great as in WB.

All of the above is as objective as I can make it. Now you may think my opinion that these factors make the game better is wrong, but you can hardly doubt the objective truth of these factors. Or, if you do, show me your evidence. You all seem so convinced, surely you would have backed up your claims with mountains of evidence and tests? You would not submit yourself to the possibility of being fooled by mere instinct and hurt emotions? Surely a rational, skeptical person would not let oneself dismiss a new game system because it "feels" wrong?

I have my doubts.

[Vibe]

It's as you said, "Now you may think my opinion that these factors make the game better is wrong". That's why it's all subjective. I won't even argue each individual point on the subjectiveness, other than that I feel none of what you mentioned brings much (or enough, or anything) to the combat system to excuse the clumsy, delayed with bad animations combat system that is OKAM. My feeling is all I need to decide which combat system is better, for me.

Now can you say with a straight face that we were all fooled and hurt by a game enough to look past this better combat system? All these players that stopped playing, all these negative reviews? What would an unopinionated, unbiased person devise of this mess? The game has a miniscule playerbase, it's basically dead. Having numbers below 50, hell even 100 is nothing. And that's peak players we're talking about, scheduled events and so on. Why aren't all these people playing OKAM, when it is better than Warband? Because we're all mad about the failure and therefore can't judge the combat system?

I really don't know what else to say here. The numbers are against you. And somehow since we don't agree with what you say, we're all mad and butthurt about OKAM. I've long since given up any hope (didn't really have any anger to begin with).

[Gravoth_iii]

I wouldnt either go so far as to say its objectively better. It certainly has potential as far as the multiplayer part goes, and i certainly enjoyed it more than i did crpg in the later days, but theyre both really quite different. Its not completely dead, and its not bad by any means.

More attack directions isnt objectively better, its just different. Im sure some people to prefer the rather simple 4 direction system.
Hitboxes is a hard part to judge, In general the tighter the better, but there are exceptions imo.
Pole stun and such things are not necessarily making things less competitive, just more punishing.
Complexity isnt always enjoyable. Im not sure i enjoyed OKAMS change in armory too much, though i needed to test it out more to be fair. It just didnt catch my interest at all outside of pure aesthetical view. And then it was objectively better in the layers, but objectively worse in the lack of amounts of armors to choose from compared to crpg.


In the end things like complexity comes down to what is humanly manageable, and that can vary on what audience you want and how large you want the peak skill to be. 8 attack directions is still very manageable for many people so it can seem like a pure upgrade, but im certain there are people that would struggle with this concept.

[Kadeth]

I really tried to have productive conversations about OKAM's combat on ye old OKAM forums several times, but at the end of the day some of us just don't agree on what makes a good game, and that's fine. I don't see the harm in a few people memeing about a game on a dead forum. I mean, you haven't posted here for years Ramses, and suddenly you show up desperately defending OKAM - and we're the ones that have been triggered? lol. Why exactly does it bother you that a few people don't like the game, on the cRPG forums of all places?

High tier Warband combat is all about animation abuse. You might think it's a good thing that you can't roflcopter stab in OKAM "cos realism !", but to me it feels like a restriction. Turn-rate is definitely slower and attack angles can only be adjusted marginally compared to Warband. I spent at least 100 hours on OKAM and did not once feel like the additional attack directions added any complexity to the game, because blocking was so easy anyway. Warband has some pretty bullshit feinting, but it has created a unique PvP experience that can be pretty complex at high levels.

I still think that if the combat was good enough the servers would be packed, since so many of us are surely desperate for another great melee game. Warband's foundations are rewarding enough that thousands of people play it every day for the combat alone. Obviously I'm not the only one that felt like OKAM's combat is clunky and restrictive in comparison.

[Gravoth_iii]

I felt like OKAM was what they tried to make crpg's combat into. It never felt restricted to me because it was new and its own thing. Unlike crpg which was literally native but with a bunch of restrictions. It felt like you had to be precise but with more tools to do it, which was fun and also sort of difficult to learn. Either way, if the epic ever comes ill probably return, and with many others i expect. If it doesnt, then ill just play bonerlord, which seems to literally be warband with graphics updated to something that resembles decent in 2012. Native will probably get real tiresome, real quick depending on if theres any interest in competitive modes, and if theres any speck of drama or rivalry to live on.