LIVE YOUR MYTH IN FRANCE.

[Butan]

He did, like in thread #1 a year or so ago.(I think you actually asked him specifically, and he answered).

I am ashamed if its true!

[Leshma]

20th July 2016, suddenly a major religion in your country is illegal.

I believe that many Muslims already feel that way, that their religion is illegal in Europe because we don't follow Sharia Law. Don't forget their greatest trick, that we are all Muslims just some of us haven't come to realization with it. Which means we should all follow Sharia, if we don't we are acting against our religion (yikes) and therefore are suitable targets for attacks, to "straighten" us to the norm so to speak. Wouldn't surprise me that many snack-bar supporters actually follow this logic and act upon it.

Jarl Garlic, Swede whose Muslim parents emigrated from Albania, once wrote how his relatives told him about bad treatment of Islam in communist Yugoslavia. My parents lived in mixed society, as a matter of fact my father grew up in village where most residents were Islamic (only few orthodox families, his being one of them). They had every right, only Sharia wasn't state wide law system and thus they claimed to be badly treated by communists. Which is why they protested against them in Afghanistan, at the end replacing secular state with Islam.

You can give them a finger, but they actually want whole body, not even a hand will suffice.

[Thomek]

As to things that could actually be done, except from curbing immigration to sustainable levels is of course to look to Turkey.

They have state mosques afaik, where the priesthood is somewhat controlled by the state. I mean, in Norway we already have a state church, once undoubtedly established for a similar purpose. I know they are proposing some kind of approval of imams in Denmark atm.

And frankly, I think religion is the root of a whole bunch of problems. Imo why not just insert state control of all religious organizations. Hopefully they will all turn as boring and empty as the Norwegian state church is.

On a much deeper level though, I think we will see more extremism in the world, simply as a function of internet.

Back in the day, if you were a disgruntled young man with a fucked up life, you had to work hard to become radicalised. You'd have to meet an inspiring mentor, or travel to a school in Pakistan to get your head filled with islamist bullshit. That's why it practically never happened. Nowadays you can find all the community, confirmation and explanations online. It's simply much easier to meet like-minded people and join the circle jerk.

Of course, perhaps the 161:1 kill death ratio (1.3mill:4425 solder + ~3600 western civilians) of war on terror has something to do with it too, idk.

[Oberyn]

Yes, all the victims of "The War on Terror" are definetely due to imperialistic colonial crusaders, the vast majority were absolutely not victims of mental retarded muslim fanatics ethnically cleansing each other. I'm sure the 2nd and 3rd generation algerians and moroccans that have lived their entire lives in the west slaughtering random people in France were totally just poor victims of "The War on Terror", we should be understanding of their plight, look how insanely discriminated they are, truly the most victimized and opressed people on the entire planet. Suck my dick Thomek.

[Tydeus]

Making one religion illegal isn't remotely feasible, it's like listening to Trump say "Deport all illegal immigrants." Would tax the system so much that it would collapse without major changes taking place first. The only thing you have to do (or can do, in the pragmatic sense), is criticize Islam openly and that means reducing how often we throw around terms like "bigot", "racist", or "islamophobe." You don't have to eliminate it, just reserve it for only the most extreme and obvious cases, meaning where people have taken physical action. Otherwise you're making it unsafe to criticize, you're putting a cost or punishment on those that criticize it.

Criticism is the only way to induce an internal reformation within Islam. Something nearly everyone agrees should take place, as it's the only major religion currently to not have undergone some sort of modernizing.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Well, rest assured, your opinion matters greatly to me, fantasy_name_here.

Thank you for that Information.

Yes, all the victims of "The War on Terror" are definetely due to imperialistic colonial crusaders, the vast majority were absolutely not victims of mental retarded muslim fanatics ethnically cleansing each other. I'm sure the 2nd and 3rd generation algerians and moroccans that have lived their entire lives in the west slaughtering random people in France were totally just poor victims of "The War on Terror", we should be understanding of their plight, look how insanely discriminated they are, truly the most victimized and opressed people on the entire planet. Suck my dick Thomek.

Don't you think there is some middle-ground between "imperialistic colonial crusaders" being the only true reason and "mental retarded muslim fanatics ethnically cleansing each other"? Also I think it doesn't matter at all who is to blame but how to stop it. Next generation of syrians won't be mentally stable either, that's for sure.

[Thomek]

Whats with the uncivilised attitude Oberyn?

You, of all, should understand how people become radicalised. You've become a bit of an extremist yourself, even though you have grown up in a safe and peaceful society.

I still think we are way ahead on the K:D ratio though, even if you only count direct civilian deaths by western forces. Have you seen how the muricans wage war? There's no shortage of big ammo. I'm afraid I don't have numbers, but I would guess at least 10:1. A very conservative number, probably much higher.

So let's say we kill 10 innocent muslims for every 1 innocent of "our" guys. It's still pretty fucked up.

The only way to rationalize this is to become comfortable with the idea that some lives are more worth than others. Or that there's a war between west and islam. Suddenly you find yourself with the exact same mindset as Muslim terrorists.

What can be done? Idk. One part of me says, fuckit nukem! Because it's painful to think about. When in doubt however, I'll by far stick to the boring undramatic social democratic, slow way of dealing with things. Close the borders, (done atm.), insert state control of mosques, which is not a ban, take steps to increase integration, and try to create peace in the middle east. (right..)

Anyway Oberyn. What can practically be done? Yeah we understand the anger and the fist waving, but what can be done?

[Tydeus]

If, instead, that person is feeling really unique and original they may criticise it and say 'the culture around this religion needs to change, separation of religion and law, the way it's taught in some areas' well no shit Sherlock. Welcome to every non-muslim's opinion ever.

That opinion isn't nearly as widely held as I would hope for. Perhaps things are a bit different in the EU (I have heard otherwise), but in the US we have a lot of influential people that would call you a bigot for implying that their culture is somehow lesser, flawed, or simply "imperfect." Just look at the "Gross and Racist" Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck video and the comments beneath it. Most people who use the phrase "regressive leftist" are referring to people like Ben Affleck who won't even admit that Islam has some improving that it needs to do.

Honestly a lot of what I have been reading the past few days in this section seems to be people talking past each other / misunderstanding people's actual positions. In Oberyn's case, he just seems overly frustrated at people ignoring the obvious(that a reform needs to take place, or that we should at least have a proper conversation about what beliefs should and shouldn't be allowed into our countries henceforth), and has thus taken a more extreme stance. Maybe I'm wrong, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when you're on a forum with so many L2 english speakers.

The only way to rationalize this is to become comfortable with the idea that some lives are more worth than others. Or that there's a war between west and islam. Suddenly you find yourself with the exact same mindset as Muslim terrorists.

It only makes you the same if you fail understand that not all cultures are equally capable of maximizing human wellbeing. What would make you the same, would be which specific actions you did afterwards.

[Oberyn]

Nope, you're completely right, I just can't give a single flying fuck about what these regressive retards "think" anymore, and that's being generous with the word. Any attempt at discussion begins or ends with "U R RACIST OMG" or some attempt at equating you to a fascist neo-chocolate chip cookie. Zero interest in their uninformed, moronic views.
If polish immigrants started commiting mass terrorist attacks because they're discriminated against, I seriously doubt Thomek would be making excuses for them, like the "moderate" muslims and regressives endlessly trying to find "explanations" for muslim terrorism.

[Thomek]

@Oberyn
I'm not making fucking excuses for them. Understanding is not something that strictly belongs to socialist cucks. It's called critical thinking, something that is one of the absolute pillars of western civilization.

Also, please divulge your ideas on what can be done. (for the 3rd time in this thread.)

@Tydeus, americans in general are a bit disconnected from the rest of the world. No doubt because of the physical barrier.

Look at how _bad advisors_ etc informed on the war in Iraq.. I really can't contribute purely evil intent to the US, but a lot of ignorance of how the world works there is for sure. The US are literally hated in many, many parts of the world. I'm a fanboy with some/plenty reservations however.

So many horrible governments and dictatorships thrive on the US hate.

[Tydeus]

Tydeus, americans in general are a bit disconnected from the rest of the world. No doubt because of the physical barrier.

Look at how _bad advisors_ etc informed on the war in Iraq.. I really can't contribute purely evil intent to the US, but a lot of ignorance of how the world works there is for sure. The US are literally hated in many, many parts of the world. I'm a fanboy with some/plenty reservations however.

So many horrible governments and dictatorships thrive on the US hate.

No doubt. It's rather deserving in most cases. I hate the same things about this country that everyone else does. 9 times out of 10 when Paul says "ban NA" it's for a very good reason and I find myself incapable of disagreeing. 

[Oberyn]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36837108

"Man knifes mother and three daughters at French holiday park"

"Local prosecutor Raphael Balland said the motive was still "very vague"."

"According to authorities, the suspect in custody was of Moroccan origin and had been staying on the site with his own family next door to the victims.
Although he had been in trouble with police many years ago, reports said there was no indication of a religious link to the case.
Unconfirmed reports suggested he had objected to the light clothing worn by his victims but Mr Balland said "it's all rumour, the man's not said anything"."

Another poor victim of the War on Terror. His motive is, of course, a complete mystery. We might never really know what reason this man had for stabbing a woman and her children in a park, oh well.

[Tydeus]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36837108

"Man knifes mother and three daughters at French holiday park"

"Local prosecutor Raphael Balland said the motive was still "very vague"."

"According to authorities, the suspect in custody was of Moroccan origin and had been staying on the site with his own family next door to the victims.
Although he had been in trouble with police many years ago, reports said there was no indication of a religious link to the case.
Unconfirmed reports suggested he had objected to the light clothing worn by his victims but Mr Balland said "it's all rumour, the man's not said anything"."

Another poor victim of the War on Terror. His motive is, of course, a complete mystery. We might never really know what reason this man had for stabbing a woman and her children in a park, oh well.

Doesn't seem like the best example. A better example would be the reaction to the Charlie Hebdo incident and the following Je suis Charlie slogan. Lots of criticism stating how the murders were of no surprise because they were criticizing Islam, so "what did you think would happen?" Again, if it's not safe to criticize religion(specifically Islam because it's behind in this area), it's going to take significantly longer than we should deem as "affordable" for the proper reformations to take place.

[Thomek]

Are you saying war on terror is not to blame at all?

Before war on terror: Very little muslim terrorism in the west.
After war on terror: Plenty of muslim terrorism in the west.

I'm not excusing the religion, just saying that this is a major part of their thinking. Before they were usually happy left alone in their shithole countries.

Put it like this Oberyn, if the middle east instigated revolts in EU and bombed Paris and generally murdered the poor goatfarmers of europe, would you stay a peace oriented cuck? At the same time muslim culture was super popular all over the world, displacing your own?

[Tydeus]

Are you saying war on terror is not to blame at all?

That would be obtuse.

I actually care very little though about where acts of terror occur, except in noticing that 90% of them occur in muslim dominant areas(Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Nigeria). When so much of the terror occurs in Islamic countries, it makes very little sense to say "stop the war on terror and this goes away." My mindset is 90% focused on pragmatism. I'm completely open to the idea that at one point or another the war on terror was likely the main cause of terrorism (at least in the west.) What I try to do is look at it from the perspective of what an unbiased observer would see (so an alien, essentially), and focus on what we can do to reduce acts of terror considering the situation we currently find ourselves in.

Where is terror occurring? When each incident occurs, what is the motive? Who are most likely to be the targets? Which motives for each individual act, are most common? When you do this, you find horrible things occurring, things that have almost nothing to do with western cultures(except insofar as they're "different" or not adherents of sharia law) or are outright outlawed. See FGM, general treatment of women/homosexuals, etc.

From a pragmatic standpoint, it just doesn't help at all to say "the war on terror is to blame for our current predicament." (Unless your only focus is terror in the west, in which case I can only say: shame on you.) So this just gets omitted, the same way this side of the argument doesn't, or should have to preface every statement with "not all muslims." It's obviously implied to anyone not looking for a reason to be angry/giving people the benefit of the doubt, and serves no pragmatic purpose.