Leave or stay in the EU?

[Falka]

Besides, most EU members won't vote them in now, since if they do, it will give the green light to their own separatist moments to leave as well.

That's quite an exaggeration. There's very few countries in EU which are afraid of separatist movements.

[Leshma]

Scotland isn't some region of England. I don't see separatism in there. Catalonia and Basque are regions of one country which seek independence. Big difference between these two. Catalonia and Basque case is similar like situation of Kosovo which so many western countries gladly recognized as independent, although countries like Spain did not. Although I don't recall them saying a word how they'll put brakes on possible membership of Kosovo in EU. In the end, all that matters is what Germany, France and USA have to say about that. No one gives a fuck what countries like Spain, Italy or Greece think about any matter regarding Union.

[Leshma]

Your country's future depend on USA.

[Butan]

Scotland isn't some region of England. I don't see separatism in there. Catalonia and Basque are regions of one country which seek independence. Big difference between these two. Catalonia and Basque case is similar like situation of Kosovo which so many western countries gladly recognized as independent, although countries like Spain did not. Although I don't recall them saying a word how they'll put brakes on possible membership of Kosovo in EU. In the end, all that matters is what Germany, France and USA have to say about that. No one gives a fuck what countries like Spain, Italy or Greece think about any matter regarding Union.

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdoms in a way, so even though they might leave "legally" it is still a kind of separatism.
The major differences between regions and countries are the size of the land concerned, which is often very subjective, like all the motives to "become independent from X".

[Rhekimos]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/sending-boris-johnson-foreign-office-bad-britain-good-theresa-may

Good analysis of the Boris Johnson appointment and Theresa May's moves.

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdoms in a way, so even though they might leave "legally" it is still a kind of separatism.

The will to politically secede perfectly fits the definition of separatism. It doesn't imply criminality or lawless behavior, though even advocating it is illegal in Russia and China. Except for advocating separatism in other countries. Texans have votes or threaten to have a vote to leave almost regularly.

The major differences between regions and countries are the size of the land concerned ...

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdoms in a way ...

Scotland is a country, but it's not a sovereign state, not an independent country.

Scotland could also be thought of as a region, since region is a very generic term. Like a geographic region. But to call Scotland a region instead of a country in this sense would be belittling its internal to UK and self-rule status.

The size of the area doesn't enter into it.

[Butan]

Size does enter into it, if Scotland was way smaller it would be seen as less legitimate to become independant, because it doesnt rule that much to begin with. If it was twice bigger than England, there would be much more reason to become independant from GB because, hey they are puny we can rule ourselves easily.

Even geographical positioning is taken into the equation: islands are often way more prone to become independant, simply because they are not physically attached to a mainland and have mechanically more chance to have produced a different culture.


As to belittling Scotland in saying region, thats not really the point I wanted to make (I'm not interested in belittling such or such), United Kingdom is a country formed by several countries, you can label each one of the countries, regions and/or countries of the UK and not be wrong. If you want to prove that Scotland should be independent you might be saying "country" more, if against "region" but thats againt not what I'm trying to talk about

[Turkhammer]

Has for a long time, and now more than ever.

But I don't see what input the US will have into whether or not an Independent Scotland is allowed in the EU, or that they'd get more of a say than Spain, Italy or Greece.

Exactly.  The US cares (or should care) more that "allies" like Germany, France, and England sell technology to China that can be used for military purposes despite the trade ban emplaced in response to the Tiananmen Square massacre than it does whether Scotland joins the EU or not.

[Tibes]

Exactly.  The US cares (or should care) more that "allies" like Germany, France, and England sell technology to China that can be used for military purposes despite the trade ban emplaced in response to the Tiananmen Square massacre than it does whether Scotland joins the EU or not.

Yeah, they should do it like the US in the Middle-East and just give that shit out for free. Selling military tech is undemocratic, yo.

[Turkhammer]

Yeah, they should do it like the US in the Middle-East and just give that shit out for free. Selling military tech is undemocratic, yo.

Nothing is free.

[Rhekimos]

Size does enter into it, if Scotland was way smaller it would be seen as less legitimate to become independant, because it doesnt rule that much to begin with. If it was twice bigger than England, there would be much more reason to become independant from GB because, hey they are puny we can rule ourselves easily.

Even geographical positioning is taken into the equation: islands are often way more prone to become independant, simply because they are not physically attached to a mainland and have mechanically more chance to have produced a different culture.

The relationship you are describing here is more the relative power of the two, the balance of power. Be that military, economic or the raw number of people. It's not the relative size that's important, even if they often correlate.

This is why Taiwan has such trouble with the mainland, despite being an island. It can never truly ditch China.
While Scotland could mount a very meaningful resistance, if UK ever forgot its western democratic values.

And if the internal power balance of UK was different and the pro-EU and liberal Scotland was in control, it would be the conservative England or Wales entertaining notions of ruling themselves more. And definitely not Scotland looking to break away from the union.

Legitimacy for independence and recognition as a sovereign state "in the club" and cultures are a bit more complex issues.
If the place is too small for a functioning state, it will of course have immense difficulty in being recognized. But even quite small groups can have a rather legitimate case for self-rule.

As to belittling Scotland in saying region, thats not really the point I wanted to make (I'm not interested in belittling such or such), United Kingdom is a country formed by several countries, you can label each one of the countries, regions and/or countries of the UK and not be wrong. If you want to prove that Scotland should be independent you might be saying "country" more, if against "region" but thats againt not what I'm trying to talk about

Yes, that's what I wanted to point out though. You communicate things with your choice of words, especially if there's a more accurate and relevant term available.

It wouldn't do to make a headline that says: "The woman Theresa May did this and that."
You of course say: "The British PM Theresa May did this and that."

[Falka]

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So UK got their own Trump. And they laugh at americans...

[Butan]

Thats just posturing Rhekimos, people misinterpret things because of that, which is what I showed with my examples (and yours too).

[Rhekimos]

Thats just posturing Rhekimos, people misinterpret things because of that, which is what I showed with my examples (and yours too).

I do believe the difference in importance between the balance of power and size is a meaningful one for examining these situations. After all, if someone claims a lot of land but can't possibly hold any of it, who's going to listen?
I can let it go if it's not important or interesting to you, though.

[Butan]

I'm way more interested in what the UK has done for its residents to feel that way (that each countries within the UK are region of the same entity, thus more intricated and harder to separate) if they did, and how the english would feel about all of those nations declaring independence; wouldnt it feel extremely bad? I was trying to elicit this kind of response (even from non-UK people) by speaking of regions, because I understand that it can "shock" somewhat, but semantical posturism is really not my cup of tea otherwise

[Berserkadin]

Scotland is a vassal under the UK, do they still have a liberty desire over 50%? Seems like UK are low on prestige otherwise they could have spammed placate rulers to get the liberty desire down to stable levels.