Leave or stay in the EU?

[Angantyr]

Honestly you strike me as speaking from a position where you dont really care what this actually means for the UK, you'll advocate anything that even remotely resembles voting 'i love my country! Yay!' out of principle even if it brings nothing else to the table

Another point about this comment.

I have strived in the past to refer to actual data when we have discussed immigration or Islamism here, articles, studies and statistics from credible, mainstream sources - something I believe should be the basis of any rational discourse. Which is why I frankly find it a bit odd you put me up as simply making value judgements on a principal or emotional basis.

Moreover, I find that I've rarely seen any actual sources for what then must be interpreted as gut-feeling arguments in the post history of you and people like Overdriven, Molly and many others.

[Leshma]

Now comes the joke of the day. In case you voted out not just for patriotic reasons (hope most of you are sober by now), but to stop immigrants then you're going to be surprised. In order for "free" UK to negotiate trade deals with EU you'll need to accept everything non EU countries already have to accept as part of the deal. That means influx of immigrants too. In bigger quantities than when you were able to blackmail EU and get what you want. Ask Iceland what kind of an agreement they have and don't think for a second you'll be in a better place, because you won't.

Also, Chinese said you won't get shortcut for trade agreement with them. They'll treat you as small country now, which you essentially will become in next few years when your "brothers" jump the ship. You were their entry point in EU, just like you were for other superpowers. Now that you lost that privilege they have no fricking use of you.

But it's cool and dandy, right. You probably think it is 19th century and good old commonwealth will come and save you, that Canada, Aussies and India will help you and make Britain great again. Good luck with that...

Delusions of grandeur got you into position you're currently in, you better have something to back those claims otherwise you're fucked.

Also, in case you crash and burn which probably won't happen but if it does, you're going to be taken back in EU like you're Romania or something. No privileges whatsoever and they'll give rats ass about your national identity. You've played your cards, bet everything, now you have ONE chance to make this right. If you fail, you'll join eastern Europeans in their misery.

[Oberyn]

Leshma, economics and geopolitical expert. Your sperging has been a joy to read throughout this thread, I really appreciate it. It's a nice refreshing change from the Heskey's and Overdriven's, who despite their subjective biases (pot calling the kettle black I know) at least put up a semblance of logical thought, as opposed to the stream of consciousness haphazard constructions that are your posts.

[Leshma]

I'm not an expert, but I've read few things yes. At least I have more clue than you. Just like British Krems guy said, leave option has no gameplan. Neither do you. Your whole idea is to push same shit for your beloved France and hope for the best. You have no plan how to make anything better, you're just spewing populist bullshit just like those politicians. Difference is, they do it for money while you feed your fragile ego.

Now I'll tell you something. You're not the only one who lives in vicinity of ghetto. However, ghetto that surrounds me isn't filled with unwashed muslims who you so eagerly blame for everything wrong in your life but with Slavic uneducated youth. They act the same because that is first and foremost ghetto mentality, religion and other crap comes second. Every struggle is mainly class struggle. And you know that better than I do because you spent more time studying history.

[Oberyn]

I'm not a marxist historian, sorry, I don't perceive everything through the Dialectic Class Struggle. Its ridiculous to compare the concessions fucking Iceland has to make in trade deals with bigger trading partners with what the UK or even England would have to. You clearly have no idea how fucking stupid it is, since you made it in the first place. This chicken little the world is falling alarmist bullshit about how weeeeeaaaaak and usselesss european economies are, you know, those countries like England and France and Germany who represent such a gigantic slice of the world market and economy, is entirely a narrative, one with clear implications, namely that the only answer and solution is the EU. Gee I wonder why media outlets would be vomiting such a narrative everywhere right after Brexit, what a mystery. You're right though, I'm the easily manipulated moron, so unlike the learned and intelligent, who all accept the answer to a question they themselves framed.

[McKli_PL]

This reminds me of 2008 when all my friends gave me shit for not voting for Obama.

with friends like these.... u voted Ron Paul?

[Leshma]

It is true that UK as much bigger economy should get much bigger deal and this whole ordeal should end in hugs and kisses and each side wishing other the best. However, that is not going to happen. UK does have a gameplan, I just forgot about it. Since they are leaving and that will put them in non favorable position their best bet is to make a big deal of it and maybe give others same idea. Because if they leave, then crash and burn, that will mean EU is right and they are dumb. It is better to work on splitting EU therefore making their decision right and reinstating them as some world leaders or whatever they believe they are. That's most likely they'll do now, and they are certainly skilled at it.

As things currently stands, UK have no capacity to become superpower of any sort. Those times are long gone. They can be strong independent country if they fix their internal issues. Despite what leave campaign said, EU helped UK a lot. Most of their poor areas were subsidized by EU. Those who voted against EU... now we'll see who will provide for them. London is fine and dandy, few other cities as well. Rest is no different from Slovakia for instance. They better prepare for Slovakian wages, those poor people from countryside because London won't finance them forever. Not now, when they essentially hurt London more than anyone else.

I've never said you are an idiot. You devour nationalism because it makes you feel good. That doesn't make you an idiot. You're well aware what you are doing and other options but you willfully choose that option. Like nicotine or drug addict. Idiot is the person who knows very little about anything but takes populist talk for granted. Idiots are ignorant, you are not. We have right wing politician in here who's university law professor, one of the best in whole country. Very smart dude, but he's a bit of irl troll who likes nationalism more than other options. He knows very well he's wrong but that doesn't stop him to pursue what he feels and likes. It's not matter of doing right, but doing what he wants.

[Xant]

I'm not an expert, but I've read few things yes.

But you didn't know Finland isn't protected by EU's mighty army?

[Butan]

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So a joke by a literal commie retard preaching the Worker's Revolution, and this brain-diseased bundle of sticks is still smarter than the absolute retards who unironically thought the petition was serious.

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Lets have a quick look at all the most popular super serious petitions.

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I heavily encourage you to read some of the petitions details and debates.

[Falka]

If you fail, you'll join eastern Europeans in their misery.

Oh fuck you, leave us out of this.

[Murmillus_Prime]

It is true that UK as much bigger economy should get much bigger deal and this whole ordeal should end in hugs and kisses and each side wishing other the best. However, that is not going to happen. UK does have a gameplan, I just forgot about it. Since they are leaving and that will put them in non favorable position their best bet is to make a big deal of it and maybe give others same idea. Because if they leave, then crash and burn, that will mean EU is right and they are dumb. It is better to work on splitting EU therefore making their decision right and reinstating them as some world leaders or whatever they believe they are. That's most likely they'll do now, and they are certainly skilled at it.

As things currently stands, UK have no capacity to become superpower of any sort. Those times are long gone. They can be strong independent country if they fix their internal issues. Despite what leave campaign said, EU helped UK a lot. Most of their poor areas were subsidized by EU. Those who voted against EU... now we'll see who will provide for them. London is fine and dandy, few other cities as well. Rest is no different from Slovakia for instance. They better prepare for Slovakian wages, those poor people from countryside because London won't finance them forever. Not now, when they essentially hurt London more than anyone else.

I've never said you are an idiot. You devour nationalism because it makes you feel good. That doesn't make you an idiot. You're well aware what you are doing and other options but you willfully choose that option. Like nicotine or drug addict. Idiot is the person who knows very little about anything but takes populist talk for granted. Idiots are ignorant, you are not. We have right wing politician in here who's university law professor, one of the best in whole country. Very smart dude, but he's a bit of irl troll who likes nationalism more than other options. He knows very well he's wrong but that doesn't stop him to pursue what he feels and likes. It's not matter of doing right, but doing what he wants.

Britain contributed more to the EU financially than it got back in return. Our net contribution has been stated at from just over £158,000,000 up to as much as £250,000,000 a week after rebate. That's 194,000,000 to 307,000,000 Euros a week at the current exchange rate net financial contribution to the EU. Now that we have voted to leave the EU it will now be the electorates responsibility to vote in a government that will work to fairly redistribute the savings that we make from ending EU membership and see that the money is put to good use across the kingdom and used  to invest into our infrastructure, like the NHS.

Some people argue that Scotland will hold another referendum to leave the U.K because it would prefer to remain in the EU, what those who call for a second referendum fail to realise is that the wealth being redistrubted to Scotland by the EU had originally came from the whole of the U.K. It had been redistributed from the millions the whole of the U.K contributed in the first place. Without the U.K's combined contribution Scotland is likely to loose significant funding if it votes to leave the U.K and stay in the EU. Scotland is not wealthy enough to contribute 158-250 million per week to the EU and therefore will not receive the same level of EU funding it has so far enjoyed. Scotland would do better respecting the decision made by people from across the whole of the U.K and fight for it's share of the savings made from leaving the EU.

[Angantyr]

I've never said you are an idiot. You devour nationalism because it makes you feel good. That doesn't make you an idiot. You're well aware what you are doing and other options but you willfully choose that option. Like nicotine or drug addict. Idiot is the person who knows very little about anything but takes populist talk for granted. Idiots are ignorant, you are not. We have right wing politician in here who's university law professor, one of the best in whole country. Very smart dude, but he's a bit of irl troll who likes nationalism more than other options. He knows very well he's wrong but that doesn't stop him to pursue what he feels and likes. It's not matter of doing right, but doing what he wants.

Nationalism isn't just emotional. There's plenty of studies in sociology, modern and going all the way back to Durkheim. Tribalism (which nationalism is just another form of) is a well-known factor for societal development.
In Haidt's words: 'We are tribal. And that is our curse - you couldn't have genocide in war without tribalism - but it is also our secret and our blessing; there would be no civilization if we weren't tribal'.

[Oberyn]

Leshma perceives everything through the lens of emotion, so he projects it. He even mentions that a homegrown politician, one he characterizes as "very smart", is very angled towards nationalism. Then the train of thought breaks down because he can't reconcile that this man may possibly have very valid, logical reasons for it, no, it must be trolling and knowing he's wrong and a balm for his ego and a selfish manipulation. If it isn't "right" according to Leshma's Disneylike perception of morality there must always be another underlying reason, usually a dark and greedy one.

[Angantyr]

It's the image tribalism has now in public discourse after the wars and there's a lot of neglect in speaking honestly about it.

[Oberyn]

It's PTSD on a civilizational level, extending to engulf even countries that did not suffer overmuch from the WW's or profit from colonial imperialism, merely because they happened to share similar heritage and cultural traits.