Leave or stay in the EU?

[Butan]

Not if he's from a protected class, in this case a muslim turk. Do you honestly think anyone would have taken this law seriously if, say, Bush had attempted to invoke it? German media certainly didn't seem worried about it back then, or any time they need to slander and insult another european leader into doing their bidding, the hypocritical bundle of stickss.

Its less about "class" (didnt know turk were protected in EU, might want to read more on internet), more about the personaly cult level reached in certain countries make it justifiable to invoke this kind of law, this forcefully.
Still, even in western countries without strong leadership, this kind of law was used to suppress papers or too insistent protesters, but it was used very parsimoniously. Even us stronk and mighty occidentals arent very keen on freedom when it hurts political image.

[Grytviken]

So if we leave the EU we make Isis and Putin happy (according to the Prime Minister) That along with war in Europe and NATO being weak if we leave probably means I won't be listening to much that comes out of Cameron's mouth 


So much for reasoned debates. Isis to the left of me einstein to the right etc etc song lyrics.

Why would that make Putin happy? Putin is using the ignorance and naivety of the EU against you all. What better way to get payback for the Ukraine sanctions then to flood Europe with millions of unemployed 3rd world people and watch your economy collapse under the burden?

[Osiris]

Im not sure. I cant see how Isis would be happy if we left the eu and freedom of movement was harder, cant see how the EU has anything to do with Russia considering it lacks the backbone to do anything as it is, People seem to equate the EU to NATO in these debates and act like NATO wont exist if we leave the EU or that the UK wouldn't honour its treaties if we left.

[Armpit_Sweat]

Im not sure. I cant see how Isis would be happy if we left the eu and freedom of movement was harder, cant see how the EU has anything to do with Russia considering it lacks the backbone to do anything as it is, People seem to equate the EU to NATO in these debates and act like NATO wont exist if we leave the EU or that the UK wouldn't honour its treaties if we left.

Personally, although I am supporting a strong European Uniion, I care less about UK these days... As Molly wrote few pages ago, UK thinks too much of itself, without really having good reasons for all that self-centered mindset.
And pretty much everyone outside of EU will be happy to see its getting weaker. Even Americans, as they will be able to push better commercial deals and have more "global power projection", if EU fails. Not to mention Russia, where people will be cheering, since many Russians are impatiently waiting for EU's socials experiments to fail miserably.

[Rhekimos]

Why would that make Putin happy?

It would make Putin happy because Putin sees EU as a superpower destined for another historical great power showdown together.
We know the Kremlin is backing eurosceptics like Marine Le Pen in France.
"It recently accepted a €9.4m ($10.6m) loan from First Czech Russian Bank, a lender with indirect links to the Kremlin. It is said to be the first tranche of a €40m loan (a huge sum for the party, if true)." source

Russia accused of clandestine funding of European parties as US conducts major review of Vladimir Putin's strategy
Exclusive: UK warns of "new Cold War" as Kremlin seeks to divide and rule in Europe

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Another depressing analysis of the situation:
West and Russia on course for war, says ex-Nato deputy commander
Former British general predicts Russia will seize territory in eastern Ukraine and invade Baltic states, sparking war

[Butan]

We know the Kremlin is backing eurosceptics like Marine Le Pen in France.
"It recently accepted a €9.4m ($10.6m) loan from First Czech Russian Bank, a lender with indirect links to the Kremlin. It is said to be the first tranche of a €40m loan (a huge sum for the party, if true)."

Thats a far fetched claim, but possible and backed by the mainstream.
I'm not supporting the Le Pen, but the origin of this is that the bank's doors were closed to them in France. It is pretty shameful that one of the most popular political party has to find money elsewhere to function normally. A far fetched claim but it is possible that political enemies were trying to strangle the movement financially at home, a very democratic hobby.



How many political parties receive money from other countries's middlemen do you think? Seeing the relative history of US overthrowing divine mandate, I wouldnt put it behind US/EU to do exactly the same.
The game of accusing Russia of things we do ourselves find no place in my heart.

[Molly]

Thats a far fetched claim, but possible and backed by the mainstream.
I'm not supporting the Le Pen, but the origin of this is that the bank's doors were closed to them in France. It is pretty shameful that one of the most popular political party has to find money elsewhere to function normally. A far fetched claim but it is possible that political enemies were trying to strangle the movement financially at home, a very democratic hobby.



How many political parties receive money from other countries's middlemen do you think? Seeing the relative history of US overthrowing divine mandate, I wouldnt put it behind US/EU to do exactly the same.
The game of accusing Russia of things we do ourselves find no place in my heart.

Neither German AfD nor NPD deny this relationship with the Kremlin. On the contrary, they used to boast about it.
There even have been claims that Russia sent paid agitators to right-wing demonstrations...

[Butan]

Neither German AfD nor NPD deny this relationship with the Kremlin. On the contrary, they used to boast about it.
There even have been claims that Russia sent paid agitators to right-wing demonstrations...

I was specifically talking about the Front National case.

The last paragraph is where I speak in general sense of how we should leave our anti-NATO or anti-Russia (or whatever side of the fence you're in) out at the door when making assumptions about political dishonesty 

[Molly]

First off:
When two German parties boast about their connection to and payment out of Russia, is it really far fetched that FN does the same, just more subtle?

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I am not making assumptions.
Everyone - not you specifically! - should read more carefully, I believe.

Read what I wrote again.
First line is stating facts, available for everyone who wants to read them.
Second line again is stating facts. When I write "there have been claims" does it not automatically mean I agree/disagree with it. It means that "there have been claims". Nothing more nor less.

Oberyn and Jambi are prime examples of "not able to actually comprehend what has been written". Maybe they don't even want to.
At least Oberyn is kinda amusing with all his assumptions he makes about a lot of people, including me, concerning stuff they have never stated in any way like that. He might know a lot but I am still unsure if he actually is a smart lad or not

A bit more care when reading other people's posts and a bunch of drama could be avoided. But where is the fun in that, I guess

[Butan]

First off:
When two German parties boast about their connection to and payment out of Russia, is it really far fetched that FN does the same, just more subtle?

The FN is indeed more subtle, because they dont boast about it, they only speak about being unsupported political party despite reaching 20%+ in all elections. Thats their actual method, playing the victim (which they debatedly are on some points).
I'm not saying one party or the other is something or not, I'm just using the facts you have given me yourself about the german parties which have been publically saying they are supported by the Kremlin. I trust you on that, not even trying to second guess you should have showed you I'm not trying to waste you in any way.

Now, the FN didnt do that so it falls into assumption category if one is to say they are indeed supported by Kremlin. Not trying to pussyfoot here, but you have misread my intention so I try to make it clear. I'm not really interested in making drama in these kind of threads when someone is not trying first, and you dont seem to be doing anything over than neutral speak so trust me a lil bit.

Not implying FN isnt being supported too, or that it cant be true. It wouldnt be above them, whats sure is they need the money.
Most important thing in matter of political party financing, is letting everyone have its chance at elections, not throttling out the fight of your political nemesis by putting them on a red list. It is how mafia work, and my country is doing that to the FN which I dont support the ideology. Still a cunt move.


To sum up on this topic, like I said, everyone is probably doing the same shit all over, the sources differs if you're on one side of the fence or the other and thats it (you probably will recognise my way of thinking from meanwhile in Ukraine ).
When political parties are being supported in your countries by exterior forces, it sucks but it sucks even more if your people elect them. Except if even the population is undercover agents  and if they are not elected they have no power, ruskie agent or not.
Now whats sad is what they do with the money they have, other than defending one viewpoint... But once again do you really think that even homegrown political figures are honest persons?

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I could talk your ears off dude!

[Rhekimos]

Thats a far fetched claim, but possible and backed by the mainstream.
I'm not supporting the Le Pen, but the origin of this is that the bank's doors were closed to them in France. It is pretty shameful that one of the most popular political party has to find money elsewhere to function normally. A far fetched claim but it is possible that political enemies were trying to strangle the movement financially at home, a very democratic hobby.

This is of course not impossible. Though many well established banks might just not want to be seen in business transactions with Le Pen.

How many political parties receive money from other countries's middlemen do you think? Seeing the relative history of US overthrowing divine mandate, I wouldnt put it behind US/EU to do exactly the same.
The game of accusing Russia of things we do ourselves find no place in my heart.

It's not usually done. Not outside CIA style operations. And not to friends or nations you want friendly relations with. There's of course other methods of influence than giving money. And there's degrees to it too. Giving some oil to the squeaky wheel in the corrupt machine? Probably been done. Bankrolling a regime change? That would be news.

[Molly]

[...]
Most important thing in matter of political party financing, is letting everyone have its chance at elections, not throttling out the fight of your political nemesis by putting them on a red list. It is how mafia work, and my country is doing that to the FN which I dont support the ideology. Still a cunt move.
[...]

That's exactly what happened to the AfD here.
The big parties were all like "OMAHGAWD they are evul racists! Let's ignore them!"
Next thing they saw were their numbers rising in regional elections. Good job!
Not arguing with these kind of parties but instead ignoring them gets nothing but more votes for them really. People gonna vote them out of despite. "Look, the establishment ignores the people and their voting!"

Very slowly they start now to actually work with them on a content based level. On the other hand, the mob voted them without the party actually having a settled program. There simply was none. Now, that they got up to 20% in regional parliaments, the wrote up a program.
And as I already explained earlier, that program is a slap into the face of people with low income and according jobs. Completely catered towards medium sized companies. Alas, they screamed "Refugees bad!" and that's good enough for the standard guy

[Oberyn]

If only they were as concerned as you are with your country's poor and disadvantaged. I'm sure you see nothing wrong with the "big parties" discouraging these poor dumb brutes who don't know what's good for them of their votes. How exactly do you think they would do that, Molly? Do you think calling them evil racists was "ignoring" them, or their usual MO when confronted with anyone not towing the usual retarded globalistic, multiculti party line? Too bad the "mob" you have such deep contempt for are starting to give zero fucks about your favourite shaming tactics. Oh well, back to the drawing board, I'm sure insulting their intelligence some more will yield fantastic results.

[Kafein]

I'm not supporting the Le Pen, but the origin of this is that the bank's doors were closed to them in France. It is pretty shameful that one of the most popular political party has to find money elsewhere to function normally. A far fetched claim but it is possible that political enemies were trying to strangle the movement financially at home, a very democratic hobby.

Any French bank with a bit of foresight would avoid helping FN. In any cases, political parties need *money* not loans. A political campaign is (hopefully) not a financial investment, even though it frequently is.

If only they were as concerned as you are with your country's poor and disadvantaged. I'm sure you see nothing wrong with the "big parties" discouraging these poor dumb brutes who don't know what's good for them of their votes. How exactly do you think they would do that, Molly? Do you think calling them evil racists was "ignoring" them, or their usual MO when confronted with anyone not towing the usual retarded globalistic, multiculti party line? Too bad the "mob" you have such deep contempt for are starting to give zero fucks about your favourite shaming tactics. Oh well, back to the drawing board, I'm sure insulting their intelligence some more will yield fantastic results.

As an aside unrelated to the topic, why would one have anything else than contempt for idiots? Moreover, idiots that have negative influence on policies that may affect you? Or are you so far gone into your collectivist ideology that you would sacrifice yourself for a mob that shares some of your genetic material? The reality is, good parenting sometimes involves using tactics that wouldn't be necessary and would certainly not be effective if you were dealing with adults.

[Oberyn]

Maybe from my perspective the idiots supporting toxic and negative policies that affect me are elsewhere? Maybe the naive cucks who sniff disdainfully at the concerns of people who aren't as ridiculously deluded as them? Molly is, afaik, an engineer. So his "oh noes, the pooooor!" fake concern is not about anything that would affect him. It's certainly not concern for the "mob" that are nothing but racist idiots in his eyes. But keep it up, pretending they are children, and ivory tower cunts like you are "parents". Clearly you know the lives and concerns of these people better than they do themselves. I'm not too worried about these sorts of "parental" tactics, tbh. The insane arrogance and unwarranted moral superiority will reap no rewards.