Author Topic: Leave or stay in the EU?  (Read 96189 times)

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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #360 on: May 15, 2016, 05:49:20 pm »
+1
Merkel's immigrant offer of course wasn't a suicide pact or a self-destruct device but another decision made with incomplete information and some incorrect assumptions about the world, particularly on the geopolitical level. She couldn't see the masses coming in the future. There was an air of self-aggrandizement about it though. I bet it was supposed Merkel's legacy, a shining example of a political move that she'll be remembered for. And it looks like she'll be remembered for it but the shine is not all that great.


Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #361 on: May 15, 2016, 06:02:59 pm »
0
Nah. At worst the streets will be slightly less safer at night, but that would probably be the most of it. Everything else we will probably fuck up ourselves. Call it being smart or stupid, our population isnt most certainly ready to take in anyone. And people like Molly saying its being selfish, not really giving a shit and forcing us to do it anyway, isnt gonna change that fact.

There's no need to guess, you can see the "fruits" of it in danish crime and welfare statistics by country of origin, one of the few european countries left who still allow themselves to look at reality square in the face, even if the facts are not in accordance with the narrative. Impossible to get the same data in France but the shape of it is still there for anyone that cares to dig. It's similar in every western european countries and the worst offenders remain the same.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #362 on: May 15, 2016, 06:05:19 pm »
0
Merkel's immigrant offer of course wasn't a suicide pact or a self-destruct device but another decision made with incomplete information and some incorrect assumptions about the world, particularly on the geopolitical level. She couldn't see the masses coming in the future. There was an air of self-aggrandizement about it though. I bet it was supposed Merkel's legacy, a shining example of a political move that she'll be remembered for. And it looks like she'll be remembered for it but the shine is not all that great.

Strange how Merkel did not have all the information and could not guess the implications of her actions when dozens of other public figures did. I'm sure they were motivated by their white-supremacist racism though, so not worth paying attention to. Feels>Reals on the geopolitical level, what a time to be alive.
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Offline Tibes

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #363 on: May 15, 2016, 06:20:20 pm »
+1
I dont really believe that too. 3rd world people suffering from war or economic crysis want into the West and hearing of how we let some of them in, unconditionally (because we are such kind people after all), will make more and more of them try their luck. It isnt even that much of an educated quess that people, who have dealt with foreign politics for years could have possibly misjudged.

Either they did it on purpose, or they didnt care.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #364 on: May 15, 2016, 06:36:52 pm »
+1
Strange how Merkel did not have all the information and could not guess the implications of her actions when dozens of other public figures did. I'm sure they were motivated by their white-supremacist racism though, so not worth paying attention to. Feels>Reals on the geopolitical level, what a time to be alive.

Hmm, but did they have all the information? They probably had less, though some of their assumptions might have been more in line with reality.
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Offline Falka

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #365 on: May 15, 2016, 06:47:59 pm »
0
Everything else we will probably fuck up ourselves. Call it being smart or stupid, our population isnt most certainly ready to take in anyone.

True I guess, but politicians should be wiser than that. For our current stance with regard to the immigration crisis we're gonna pay much more in the future than 250 k per immigrant. I myself am not a fan of taking in immigrants who clearly aren't... compatible with EU, but as one of the bigger recipients of EU funds and as a very unlikely destination for immigrants I think we should agree to take in our share of immigrants. Not only as an act of solidarity with the rest of EU, but also, or even mostly, as an act of realpolitik. Immigrants are gonna remain a problem for Germany and other, much wealthier countries, no matter how many of them will be relocated, not for us. Then why not play a good guy, while making demands in the really vital issues.
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Offline Angantyr

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Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #367 on: May 15, 2016, 07:12:56 pm »
+1
The japanese took in around 20 "refugees". It took a couple of months before 2 of them were arrested for a gangrape. Turks too, clearly fleeing war and persecution (lol). You should go find the woman who got raped and tell her they clearly were no threat, that dumb racist hoe.

Nice little bit of trivia, but what does it has to do with anything?
Are you saying that refugees are humans and humans do crime? You dont say...


Strange how Merkel did not have all the information and could not guess the implications of her actions when dozens of other public figures did.

A broken clock is right twice a day.
Far-right has been overblowing immigration since way before any crisis occured.
Now that there is one it must feel like its judgement day to them, which might explain the state of your mind these past years?

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #368 on: May 15, 2016, 07:20:24 pm »
0
Gallup found in 2009 that 'about 16% of the world's adults would like to move to another country permanently if they had the chance'.

Even if wishing it and doing are different things it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone that the numbers would be unmanageable.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124028/700-million-worldwide-desire-migrate-permanently.aspx

Quote
Roughly 210 million adults around the world would like to move to a country in the European Union, which is similar to the estimated number who would like to move to Northern America. However, about half of the estimated 80 million adults who live in the EU and would like to move permanently to another country would like to move to another country within the EU -- the highest desired intra-regional migration rate in the world.

Quote
From its surveys in 135 countries between 2007 and 2009, Gallup finds residents of sub-Saharan African countries are most likely to express a desire to move abroad permanently. Thirty-eight percent of the adult population in the region -- or an estimated 165 million -- say they would like to do this if the opportunity arises.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 07:27:55 pm by Angantyr »

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #369 on: May 15, 2016, 07:22:43 pm »
0
Yeah, the growing number of terrorist attacks from 3rd generation muslim fanatics isn't a crisis. Neither is the disproportional ( do you understand what that word means?) crime and violence they commit, or the disproportional amount of them taking advantage of the welfare system, or the complete lack of integration into the main culture. This is the first and only time there have ever been any drawbacks to mass immigration. It's all benefits otherwise.
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Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #370 on: May 15, 2016, 07:26:57 pm »
+1
Are you even responding to someone?  :lol:
I know you are easily triggered and a good source of laugh down here, but you need to at least pretend you arent just a broken record.

Offline Grytviken

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #371 on: May 15, 2016, 07:36:46 pm »
+1


A broken clock is right twice a day.
Far-right has been overblowing immigration since way before any crisis occured.
Now that there is one it must feel like its judgement day to them, which might explain the state of your mind these past years?

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the majority of these migrants come from the most savage areas of the world where life is cheap and a good many of them are going to take their ideals with them and kill and rape wherever they go. These politicians are forcing their own people to share this burden and even sacrifice lives to make a politically correct point. It's not brave and humane to help one group of people when it could lead to another group of innocent people getting killed, it's selfish and stupid.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #372 on: May 15, 2016, 09:50:13 pm »
-1
Back on topic.

One of the core issues about the whole EU debate is about people not being able to get their heads out of their asses. The world is bigger than Germany vs Britain or France. Bigger than the Netherlands, bigger than Greece hating on Turkey or Serbia hating on Albania, and vice versa. In a larger sense, the European nations and the US have everything to win by standing fast together.

It will only be easier to deal with China and Russia that way, or even just the EU/US power balance. For example, Britain is far more likely to get a good deal with the US, standing within EU, rather than bilateral deals. Britain simply needs the US more than the US needs Britain.

Europe has more in common within itself, than with the rest of the world. That's why it should be in a union of some kind. Thats why it should be easy to travel and work inside its own borders. Just look at donkey team. It would be impossible without the EU to gather a team across 8+ nations. This ability to fluidly move across borders is a large part of what makes the US such a powerhouse, and Europe is also becoming more like this. Like it or not, I think it is for the better. I see it in my own life, I'm considering where I want to live and what I want to do.
(Strongly siding on Poland(!), since quality of life, safety, and bang for buck is very high, if you can generate income based on export of your talent/work.) This mechanism is freedom of travel + capitalism in practice.

Now about the refugee situation, I think it is a slowly self-correcting mechanism in place here. It's just a huge sluggish machinery that sometimes takes years to react and end up with a reasonable mechanism to deal with it. As right wing parties pop up everywhere in Europe, the politicians will take note, and eventually adjust their policies.

Europe and the EU _will_  eventually become way more strict about immigration. Way before its "too late" as some people think. How it will go down? The traditional, moderate parties will wake up to record polls for the right wing populists, and begin to change their policies accordingly. Sometimes the populists will rule in coalitions, and also be forced to moderate themselves by the realities of politics, eventually becoming as indistinguishable as the rest of them.

This is the utterly boring truth.

It would also make sense to deal with the root causes of immigration, which apart from direct causes like war, is a deeply stratified world. For the first time available for anyone to observe and interact with through the internet. Now anyone can fully observe what shitholes they live in. (The majority of the worlds population!) For most people, the world is a corrupt, poor, dirty and dangerous place, and Europe is the best place to be. They come, because they can come, and good luck keeping them out. Reducing immigration substantially would entail blocking off the Mediterranean and the black sea with naval powers, negotiating expensive return deals with Turkey and Russia and all the southern Mediterranean countries, as well as very strict security in all harbours and airports. Internal borders in Europe will only fuck over ourselves and Greece/Italy/Balkans.

Perhaps this is what will eventually happen, but pls understand it takes a while for this kind of thinking to reach the top of the EU. It's not the end of the world yet though. Europe consist of about 741 Million people. Even 1 million a year will not substantially dent the demographics in the short term.

TLTR: Calm down, and think in a bigger perspective.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 09:55:15 pm by Thomek »
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Offline Osiris

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #373 on: May 15, 2016, 11:54:51 pm »
0
most eurosceptics are thinking of the bigger picture and just use the immigration as a blunt object with which to batter europhiles over the head with. You may want a United States of Europe but that is far from the wishes of everyone, I hope never to see the UK cede all power to a central European government in my lifetime. All of the horror stories are just that stories.

Oh no we have a housing crises and the young people cannot afford to buy a house in most of the country, Then we are told if we leave the EU house prices will fall AND it will be harder to get a mortgage (how that works i have no idea). The problem with these debates is that there is no actual debate, Each side is just telling you how bad your life will be if you dont vote for them, The remain campaign has certainly not even tried to show how the EU is a positive thing all it has done is said how we will collapse without being in a continental union as if no other country on earth does it.
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Offline Jambi

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #374 on: May 16, 2016, 12:22:56 am »
-1
Back on topic.

One of the core issues about the whole EU debate is about people not being able to get their heads out of their asses. The world is bigger than Germany vs Britain or France. Bigger than the Netherlands, bigger than Greece hating on Turkey or Serbia hating on Albania, and vice versa. In a larger sense, the European nations and the US have everything to win by standing fast together.

It will only be easier to deal with China and Russia that way, or even just the EU/US power balance. For example, Britain is far more likely to get a good deal with the US, standing within EU, rather than bilateral deals. Britain simply needs the US more than the US needs Britain.

Europe has more in common within itself, than with the rest of the world. That's why it should be in a union of some kind. Thats why it should be easy to travel and work inside its own borders. Just look at donkey team. It would be impossible without the EU to gather a team across 8+ nations. This ability to fluidly move across borders is a large part of what makes the US such a powerhouse, and Europe is also becoming more like this. Like it or not, I think it is for the better. I see it in my own life, I'm considering where I want to live and what I want to do.
(Strongly siding on Poland(!), since quality of life, safety, and bang for buck is very high, if you can generate income based on export of your talent/work.) This mechanism is freedom of travel + capitalism in practice.

Now about the refugee situation, I think it is a slowly self-correcting mechanism in place here. It's just a huge sluggish machinery that sometimes takes years to react and end up with a reasonable mechanism to deal with it. As right wing parties pop up everywhere in Europe, the politicians will take note, and eventually adjust their policies.

Europe and the EU _will_  eventually become way more strict about immigration. Way before its "too late" as some people think. How it will go down? The traditional, moderate parties will wake up to record polls for the right wing populists, and begin to change their policies accordingly. Sometimes the populists will rule in coalitions, and also be forced to moderate themselves by the realities of politics, eventually becoming as indistinguishable as the rest of them.

This is the utterly boring truth.

It would also make sense to deal with the root causes of immigration, which apart from direct causes like war, is a deeply stratified world. For the first time available for anyone to observe and interact with through the internet. Now anyone can fully observe what shitholes they live in. (The majority of the worlds population!) For most people, the world is a corrupt, poor, dirty and dangerous place, and Europe is the best place to be. They come, because they can come, and good luck keeping them out. Reducing immigration substantially would entail blocking off the Mediterranean and the black sea with naval powers, negotiating expensive return deals with Turkey and Russia and all the southern Mediterranean countries, as well as very strict security in all harbours and airports. Internal borders in Europe will only fuck over ourselves and Greece/Italy/Balkans.

Perhaps this is what will eventually happen, but pls understand it takes a while for this kind of thinking to reach the top of the EU. It's not the end of the world yet though. Europe consist of about 741 Million people. Even 1 million a year will not substantially dent the demographics in the short term.

TLTR: Calm down, and think in a bigger perspective.

Thats alot of assuming. Where are your facts, before you call it "boring" truth?
"Calm down and think bigger perspective" is that what you will tell your friends and family, when they get hit by one of the "organized rapefugee jihad squads" like in cologne?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 01:32:58 am by Jambi »
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