Author Topic: Leave or stay in the EU?  (Read 80640 times)

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Offline Utrakil

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #225 on: April 28, 2016, 10:57:41 am »
+2
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #226 on: April 28, 2016, 12:53:19 pm »
-1
You seem to think I'm saying 'government' every time I say 'nation state', and that seems to clash with your political views.

What is a nation-state except a level of power, in a huge majority of cases today the top of the hierarchy? What else about it is relevant in this discussion?

I'm talking about the nation state as a political entity, what it is on paper.

That's what I'm doing as well.

No one is imagining this jungle law world without any cooperation, broad alliances and friendship between states with everyone only out for their own, please let us keep the conversation rational.

No one? Except that's exactly how it has been going since forever and still goes today. Alliances and friendship in many cases tend to make things worse by virtue of having a tendency to be either exclusionary or to result in an entangled mess of relations (I challenge you to explain the succession of events at the beginning of WW1 that lead to most powers entering the fight one at a time from memory). The resolutions and steps taken to curb global warming at the international stage have been pitiful because everybody wants everybody else to take most of the burden of the task. That's textbook tragedy of the commons, it is a jungle law world, by default. The only domains of power where it isn't is when there exists one global organization that has de-facto authority over nation-states (amusingly, FIFA is probably one of the most obvious examples).

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #227 on: April 28, 2016, 01:58:03 pm »
+1
Just to be clear, you're using FIFA as an example of how you think things should be settled on an international level? That is amusing. So, an oligarchy where even the pretense of representing the people that put you in power is absent in favour of a paternalistic contempt for the poor dumb inferior brutes who just can't see the bigger picture, and must have their choices made for them by a morally enlightened pseudo-nobility. Ignoring of course the ridiculous inneficiency, lack of checks and balances and corruption that comes from such a system.
In any case, as a "belgian", a "country" where a national sense of identity has always been either non-existant or completely artificial and supported by no discernable native group, I understand why you think nations are irrelevant. The destruction of an identity that never existed in the first place (not in the critical theory sense, where that is true for every single collective identity, but literally never existed) is not exactly a challenge, and given your "country"'s role as the geographical embodiment of the EU it's not surprising it was accomplished so quickly.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #228 on: April 28, 2016, 03:10:58 pm »
+1
Dang, if you think about what a decent human being Kafein would have become if he was only born French. Sad.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #229 on: April 28, 2016, 04:12:00 pm »
0
Ah yes, how "decent" of a person you feel yourself to be, truly the most important thing to take into account when considering geopolitics. Virtue signaling that you are a "good" person by repeating mantras of devotion to the wishful thinking One World Culture goal and the boundless peace and prosperity it is prophesized to bring is really essential. The details can take care of themselves. 
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Offline Zergmar

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #230 on: April 28, 2016, 04:29:52 pm »
0
Bye UK, was nice knowing you.

Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #231 on: April 28, 2016, 04:43:05 pm »
-1
Ah yes, how "decent" of a person you feel yourself to be, truly the most important thing to take into account when considering geopolitics. Virtue signaling that you are a "good" person by repeating mantras of devotion to the wishful thinking One World Culture goal and the boundless peace and prosperity it is prophesized to bring is really essential. The details can take care of themselves.

Geopolitics today is that federations and unions are harvesting most of the prosperity and peace of today though, since that seems to be the crux of the matter?

Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #232 on: April 28, 2016, 05:36:23 pm »
0
Dang, if you think about what a decent human being Kafein would have become if he was only born French. Sad.

It's almost as if you're suggesting that decency is dependent on whether you're pro European Union or not, which is quite a pathetic argument to make.

It's the kind of thinking that matches that of a racist, you're either white/black/brown/yellow or you're your bad.

The world isn't black and white Paul, there are countless shades of grey, not just 50.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:46:58 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #233 on: April 28, 2016, 05:42:08 pm »
0
Just to be clear, you're using FIFA as an example of how you think things should be settled on an international level? That is amusing. So, an oligarchy where even the pretense of representing the people that put you in power is absent in favour of a paternalistic contempt for the poor dumb inferior brutes who just can't see the bigger picture, and must have their choices made for them by a morally enlightened pseudo-nobility. Ignoring of course the ridiculous inneficiency, lack of checks and balances and corruption that comes from such a system.
In any case, as a "belgian", a "country" where a national sense of identity has always been either non-existant or completely artificial and supported by no discernable native group, I understand why you think nations are irrelevant. The destruction of an identity that never existed in the first place (not in the critical theory sense, where that is true for every single collective identity, but literally never existed) is not exactly a challenge, and given your "country"'s role as the geographical embodiment of the EU it's not surprising it was accomplished so quickly.

Good point. The more centralised political power becomes the more vulnerable it is not just to corruption but also to subjecting those over which its resides to its policy failures and mistakes. At least with a nation state as a sovereign entity the buck can stop with the government in power over that state and said government can be held to account by the electorate who voted it in.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:47:51 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #234 on: April 28, 2016, 09:24:09 pm »
0
So the whole point with the EU was to stop the endless bickering and power politics between European nations, and actually create a framework for free trade. Look at how Russia deals with with trade/diplomacy to get an idea how it was. Basically and endless and absurd tit for tat. Perhaps that is more fair in the end, but it's also a monster destroying predictability and general smoothness of trade. The result is often non-trade, and much much worse than being in a union where the rules are established.

About removing people further from power, corruption etc, this can be true. (Although I haven't heard much about Brussels being so corrupt..) The problem with EU is rather powerlessness and sluggishness when it comes to handling issues that require immediate attention like the refugee crisis. In stead of either voting for closing down Schengen borders, or opening them up, we have total paralysis, forcing individual nation states to act unilaterally and chaotically. Except the fact that taking in millions of refugees and others would only cause an even larger influx of people, Europe "could" have taken in lots of refugees with no problem, IF they were spread out evenly among the nations. At least in theory. :D  (Idea is of course flawed because of future consequences. )  - in Norway we call it "peeing your pants to keep warm."
 -
About Britain leaving the EU. I think it's retarded. It's a result of ignorant Brits thinking they are "special and superior" (like Americans, but they have some reason at least.) Except that it's a very long time since they were special and superior. Germany is a far better run country than that island.

It wasn't the EU who fucked Britain over. It was themselves and their idiotic tinkering, class system, practical backwardness, and general power being far, far removed from realities. After spending time in Belfast I'm honestly a little shocked how terribly run everything is. Perhaps Belfast is not a good metric for judging Britain, but it says something when our Ukrainian coders thinks its not so different from back home! :D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:43:36 pm by Thomek »
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #235 on: April 28, 2016, 11:48:31 pm »
0
So the whole point with the EU was to stop the endless bickering and power politics between European nations, and actually create a framework for free trade. Look at how Russia deals with with trade/diplomacy to get an idea how it was. Basically and endless and absurd tit for tat. Perhaps that is more fair in the end, but it's also a monster destroying predictability and general smoothness of trade. The result is often non-trade, and much much worse than being in a union where the rules are established.

About removing people further from power, corruption etc, this can be true. (Although I haven't heard much about Brussels being so corrupt..) The problem with EU is rather powerlessness and sluggishness when it comes to handling issues that require immediate attention like the refugee crisis. In stead of either voting for closing down Schengen borders, or opening them up, we have total paralysis, forcing individual nation states to act unilaterally and chaotically. Except the fact that taking in millions of refugees and others would only cause an even larger influx of people, Europe "could" have taken in lots of refugees with no problem, IF they were spread out evenly among the nations. At least in theory. :D  (Idea is of course flawed because of future consequences. )  - in Norway we call it "peeing your pants to keep warm."
 -
About Britain leaving the EU. I think it's retarded. It's a result of ignorant Brits thinking they are "special and superior" (like Americans, but they have some reason at least.) Except that it's a very long time since they were special and superior. Germany is a far better run country than that island.

It wasn't the EU who fucked Britain over. It was themselves and their idiotic tinkering, class system, practical backwardness, and general power being far, far removed from realities. After spending time in Belfast I'm honestly a little shocked how terribly run everything is. Perhaps Belfast is not a good metric for judging Britain, but it says something when our Ukrainian coders thinks its not so different from back home! :D

You are right to an extent. We, (as in the working poor and unemployed) have been fucked over by the class system and the political establishment, things could have been and could be run much better..

As it stands it's arguably those in the middle and upper middle and upper classes, who currently enjoy most of the benefits from Britains relationship the EU and that's why many of those within those demographics are fighting to remain in the EU, because it benefits them. There's no wonder why so much of our media is so pro-EU and anti brexit nor why both main political parties, both the government and the opposition support remaining within the EU, because they belong to the aforementioned demographics.

The working poor and unemployed get fucked over by mass immigration for multiple reasons, we don't have the social mobility or financial wealth to be able to start up a business when we want, pick and choose EU companies to trade with. In many cases the majority of the working poor don't have a choice due to financial constraints to pick where they can live in the country, or pick what schools, colleges and universities their children go to, or pay to pick what dentist or doctor they see.. They have to rely on the public systems in place like the NHS, the council services and the benefits system and all these services are under strain from a booming population in part caused by mass poorly controlled immigration. On top of the existing strain on said services the government is at the same time reducing funding to all these services when the demand on them couldn't be higher. Essentially we have a growing population that has to subsist on a crumbling underfunded infrastructure. Additionally, for the low skilled working poor we also have to compete harder for fewer available full time low skilled jobs and compete harder for overpriced rented accomodation of questionable quality. When it comes to rented accomodation for example, most of the landlords are more often than not middle, upper middle and upper class and whom manage property portfolios that have an amount of properties often numbering into double figures. They have a monopoly on the rental market and are thus able to charge stupid amounts of rent for poor quality housing. This is again another example of their demographics benefitting from the status quo in which a a housing shortage exists in part due to a growing population that's largely stimulated by uncontrolled immigration, the higher birthrate of isolated migant communities and an overall aeging population.

Of course blame lies with both successive governments domestic and foreign policies. Policies including but not limited to those derved from our membership of the EU, our foreign policies where successive governments have spent billions blowing people up and destabilising nations in the Middle-East, actions which then contribute to regional instability which then leads to an increase in the flow of migrants and refugees... To complete the shitfest we have borders that aren't effectively managed or controlled leading to an uncontrolled amount of immigration. At this point they've failed our nation, or at least the working poor and unemployed on multiple levels.  Their policies and ineptitude have contributed to an increase in the gap between the rich and poor and increased the threat of terrorism against the general populace both at home and abroad.  In response to these threats they introduce new anti terror legislation that has infringed on all of our civil liberties and in some instances has been used to stifle protest, spy on and collect the data of millions of innocent people.  With the almost certain implementation of TTIP social mobility for the working class will be almost entirely dead, except for the lucky few.. While the well to do middle and upper middle and upper classes will largely continue to happily live in their bubbles, bubbles far removed from many of our problems, they'll contniue to be able to hire cheap polish builders to build an extention on to their three storey town houses while they pay peanuts for childcare, peanuts for maids to clean their houses and can afford to spend all of their spare time studying University courses... These trends only threaten to increase the disenfranchisement the working poor and unemployed have with the system and its defence ofthe status quo, and will encourage these demographics to vote for more populist, fringe political parties, as we see in the EU and Britain today.

The status quo as it stands may not only continue to doom the working poor, but if those benefitting and profitting from it aren't careful, it threatens their own futures, the future of our nations and civilised societes too.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 12:38:12 am by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Paul

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #236 on: April 29, 2016, 05:52:15 am »
+5
It's almost as if you're suggesting that decency is dependent on whether you're pro European Union or not, which is quite a pathetic argument to make.

wat? I'm suggesting the big O's "you are from X, no wonder you suck" argument is funny. There are good pro and contra EU arguments but my remark has nothing to do with that. Personally I'm for smaller solutions with fitting mindsets and economic strength.

Like a scandinavian union(Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland):
SCandinavian Union Members

Spain, Portugal, Tunesia, etc.:
Iberian and North African Nations Enterprise

Greece, Balkan States(yeah, right):
Balkan Union of Mediterranean States

and some middle European version with all the decent countries like Germany, Austria, Benelux, Poland, maybe France.

Offline Falka

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #237 on: April 29, 2016, 07:43:34 am »
+3
and some middle European version with all the decent countries like Germany, Austria, Benelux, Poland, maybe France.

Just... can't believe my eyes  :shock:
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #238 on: April 29, 2016, 03:25:41 pm »
+1
wat? I'm suggesting the big O's "you are from X, no wonder you suck" argument is funny. There are good pro and contra EU arguments but my remark has nothing to do with that. Personally I'm for smaller solutions with fitting mindsets and economic strength.

Like a scandinavian union(Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland):
SCandinavian Union Members

Spain, Portugal, Tunesia, etc.:
Iberian and North African Nations Enterprise

Greece, Balkan States(yeah, right):
Balkan Union of Mediterranean States

and some middle European version with all the decent countries like Germany, Austria, Benelux, Poland, maybe France.

Ah ok, I guess I jumped the gun a little and misread/misunderstood what was being discussed.

It seemed as though you were sarcastically implying that Oberyn was judging whether Kafein was a decent person or not based on his country of residence. This percieved implication appeared to be made in response to what, at least from my perception appeared to Oberyn's attempt to discuss what influence living in a nation like Belgium would have on someone's view of the European Union and subsequently their view on national sovereignty in general. A point that seemed to suggest that resididing within a nation state with an arguably weaker coherent national identity a nation state that also happens to be the apple of the EU's eye may have an imbalanced/biased influence on someones political view of the European Union, a view which would lead that person coming to differing conclusions about the EU and global geopolitics.

For example, the Belgians may get on relatively well, a mix of different languages and communities coexisting in a developed European society. While back in Africa, the Middle-East and much of the rest of the world we still have tribes and nation states in a perpetual state of conflict. Which puts to question the possibility and practicality of a unified world government. Under such circumstances proponents of a world government couldn't their own way without resorting to fascism in some form and without resorting to killing or contributing to the killing of millions of people.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 03:58:25 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #239 on: April 29, 2016, 04:50:24 pm »
0
Saying that his view is faulty because of his country of residence or birth is a logical fallacy though. Ad hominem.
Absolutely everyone has biases and that doesn't break an otherwise valid argument.
It only shows that you don't like it.