Leave or stay in the EU?

[Osiris]

Yes and the world will also end on Friday.

So what your saying Heskey is that a govt voted into power because they promised a referendum should then ignore said referendum. Might as well do away with democracy all together because clearly we are too retarded to be allowed votes. I think only people with your views and opinions should have a say.

[tizzango]

Quite so, but all the choices left for UK are full of costs. Apparently costs so bad that Merkel and her closest policy wonks have already put UK on life support, prioritizing the softest possible treatment of UK over stability of the European Union itself.

It looks like you've voted to drive the bus off a cliff. All your leaders have resigned or are embattled. Not-quite-true figures were wide-spread. Leaving the single market looks like it would simply wreck your economy. Not leaving the single market would mean accepting free movement, yet curtailing immigration was a main theme and a promise, even from Cameron. You were promised to have a big boost to the NHS if you leave, and no hard choices. But that's all that's really left for you.

In fact it looks so bad for you that I'm kind of siding with Merkel, already out of self-interest. I don't want that much instability near me.

I wonder when you'll be willing to admit Farage convinced you to buy his magic beans and you'll get nothing from it. Even the people who campaigned so hard for this, promised so much, have fled the ship. Boris Johnson wouldn't trigger article 50 even if you promised him a bag of donuts for it, his entire political agenda was to appear the wounded hero, the people's champion when the referendum failed. When the result was announced he looked like a fucking ghost lol. Farage? He wanted his name in history, then to quit politics. He doesn't CARE what happens now, he never had a plan beyond having his smug day in EU Parliament.

What else are you clinging onto? Even the politicians who made this referendum happen have quit or lost all credibility through backpedalling, and yet you're still determined that this was a smart and rational campaign.

At the end of the day, not even your 'leave' party has the balls to trigger Article 50. Because for all the talk of 'putting Britain first', it will be career suicide for whoever does it, and they will be a personal scapegoat for anything that happens after.


And for someone so outraged about a government not keeping it's promises, you had no issue with Farage's campaign being caught in a huge lie within hours of the result being announced. Great double-standard. At the end of the day, if you vote for magic beans you get magic beans.

Andddddddddddddd scene! Take a bow gentlemen. The curtains can be drawn. The nail has been hammered.

Edited due to immature content.

[Osiris]

Yeah might as well close the thread because you must not have read a single thing I've posted in this thread if you think I'm a farage supporter but your superior morale ground and ideals means that you can ignore why I voted leave and lump me in with farage 

[Falka]

Leave or stay in the EU?

I dont have a strong feeling one way or the other, i'm sure there are genuine good reasons for each case

Hm...

[tizzango]

Yeah might as well close the thread because you must not have read a single thing I've posted in this thread if you think I'm a farage supporter but your superior morale ground and ideals means that you can ignore why I voted leave and lump me in with farage 

Huh?

I didn't mean to say anything about you, or your posts; nor did I allude to any notions of 'superior morale ground'?

I'm just saying that those two posts by Rhekimos and Heskey really sum up this entire thread. I have only heard TWO reasons for leaving the EU that I can somewhat (but not really at all) empathize with/understand.

[Butan]

Ps. If 'democracy' is merely pandering to the uninformed majority

This is what democracy is at the moment, yes. I know you know, all is just jests.
Of course the weaknesses of democracy become clearer when the majority isnt clear clut and doesnt go in the "acceptable" way.
Democracy could need an uplift, but you cant "properly educate/inform" voters in this world I'm afraid every posts about criticizing the voters instead of what they voted will not be seen in a fair light, it is time for you to see this..

[Falka]

I just wanted to point out that even according to you not so long ago there're "genuine good reasons for each case". It's not like leave voters had no valid reasons to vote for leaving. And while I agree that people are too "dumb" to let them decide about anything important, when they already decided, it would be kinda retarded ignoring their decision. After all every nation should have the right to destruct itself, if that's what they want (and honestly, it won't be end of the world).

PS. I'm in favour of UK staying in EU, ofc.

[Butan]

You can switch to criticizing the referendums themselves, but really its just democracy. I've seen exactly the same reactions after presidential elections in my own country, and you are not going to say that they are slow, inefficient and shouldnt happen? For your logic to be right, it needs to be right everywhere.
I know I've been poking at you a lot, but thats really what I think it is: democracy creates these situations. Criticizing referendums or voters is not going to help, pragmatically, because whether you like it or not, they happen, and people arent all super smart (even a population of 100% super smart people wouldnt agree on everything btw).

[Rhekimos]

George Osbourne vows to cut corporate tax from 20% to 15% in order to soften Brexit blow.

Businesses cheer, but Shadow chancellor John McDonnell warns this will hit low and middle income taxpayers and render the coming EU negotiations even more difficult.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/685927/EU-referendum-George-Osborne-cut-corporation-tax-boost-business-Brexit


The move was also criticized by Pascal Lemy, former director general of the World Trade Organization; sends the message that UK is becoming a tax haven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/george-osborne-corporation-tax-cut-wrong-negotiations-wto-lemy-a7118571.html


The share of businesses that reported feeling pessimistic about the UK economy doubled in the week after the Brexit vote.

The figure jumped from 25% the week before the referendum to 49%, according to YouGov and the Centre for Economics and Business Research.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36708774


“That country now has collapsed -- politically, economically, monetarily and constitutionally,” The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said, speaking of the June 23 referendum to the European Parliament.
“You will have years of work ahead of you to get out of this mess,” he added to the British members present.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-05/cameron-ally-says-collapsed-u-k-faces-years-of-brexit-mess


The Bank of England has warned there is evidence that risks it identified with Brexit are beginning to emerge.

Responding to Brexit, it has lowered the capital safety buffers of banks, potentially freeing up to £150bn for lending.

"This is a major change," said Bank of England governor Mark Carney.

The FPC also has concerns over "the high level of UK household indebtedness [and] the vulnerability to higher unemployment and borrowing costs" for some households.

House prices could also come under pressure, particularly if buy-to-let investors abandon the market, it said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36712040

[Osiris]

Can't read and reply to all of that on my smart phone. I was surprised there is a shadow chancellor, he must be the only shadow Minister left 


Labour needs to get it's shit together before the negotiations begin.

[Rhekimos]

Can't read and reply to all of that on my smart phone. I was surprised there is a shadow chancellor, he must be the only shadow Minister left 

Labour needs to get it's shit together before the negotiations begin.

Haha, yes. The amount of chaos in both the government and the opposition is extraordinary. I can almost see the monocles spinning.

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[Lt_Anders]

George Osbourne vows to cut corporate tax from 20% to 15% in order to soften Brexit blow.

Businesses cheer, but Shadow chancellor John McDonnell warns this will hit low and middle income taxpayers and render the coming EU negotiations even more difficult.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/685927/EU-referendum-George-Osborne-cut-corporation-tax-boost-business-Brexit

GOOD


The move was also criticized by Pascal Lemy, former director general of the World Trade Organization; sends the message that UK is becoming a tax haven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/george-osborne-corporation-tax-cut-wrong-negotiations-wto-lemy-a7118571.html

WHO CARES, HONESTLY. GOOD FOR BRITAIN. BRINGS LOTS OF FOREIGN MONEY.


The share of businesses that reported feeling pessimistic about the UK economy doubled in the week after the Brexit vote.

The figure jumped from 25% the week before the referendum to 49%, according to YouGov and the Centre for Economics and Business Research.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36708774

STATISTICS...WOO! SCARE CAMPAIGN.


“That country now has collapsed -- politically, economically, monetarily and constitutionally,” The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said, speaking of the June 23 referendum to the European Parliament.
“You will have years of work ahead of you to get out of this mess,” he added to the British members present.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-05/cameron-ally-says-collapsed-u-k-faces-years-of-brexit-mess

EXCEPT UK HASN'T COLLAPSED. THAT'S WHAT THE EU WANTS TO PROJECT CAUSE EU LOSES MORE BY LOOSING UK.


The Bank of England has warned there is evidence that risks it identified with Brexit are beginning to emerge.

Responding to Brexit, it has lowered the capital safety buffers of banks, potentially freeing up to £150bn for lending.

"This is a major change," said Bank of England governor Mark Carney.

The FPC also has concerns over "the high level of UK household indebtedness [and] the vulnerability to higher unemployment and borrowing costs" for some households.

House prices could also come under pressure, particularly if buy-to-let investors abandon the market, it said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36712040

PROJECTIONS. OFTEN WRONG IN HOUSING MARKETS. HIGH DEBT IS NOTHING NEW TO WESTERN WORLD.

[Grytviken]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2535295/EU-bureaucrats-outnumber-British-army-two-to-one-say-campaigners.html

Well the only way to truly understand what changes have to take place in order for the UK to fully self govern itself is to understand how the EU operates. Reading the Treaty of Lisbon would be a good start, this will obviously be a long transitional process, not something that happens overnight.

Here's the user friendly simplified version

http://www.eudemocrats.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reader_friendly_til_nettet.pdf

[Rhekimos]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36708774

STATISTICS...WOO! SCARE CAMPAIGN.

The British national broadcasting company is running a statistics based scare campaign about the future of British economy, now that the vote is over? And there's only current and new investors to convince to stay or go somewhere else?

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If you find news telling of positive effects of Brexit, do post them.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-05/cameron-ally-says-collapsed-u-k-faces-years-of-brexit-mess

EXCEPT UK HASN'T COLLAPSED.

No, though it's standing a little shaky at the moment.
And he has a point about a political collapse. Economic collapse and the rest, we'll see.

... EU LOSES MORE BY LOOSING UK.

 Are you quite sure of that power dynamic? See:

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Figures have been floated by the Leave camp like that German car exports to UK is 20%. But Germany would have perfectly good trade deals to the rest of the world, those cars would find another buyer.
While the UK would have to call upon their handful of experienced trade negotiators to BEGIN negotiations on hundreds of trade deals with very unwilling partners, since most of them would want to first see what kind of deal the UK gets from EU, since that defines the rest of UK's trade relations.

All the keys to the UK's economic kingdom would be in EU's hands.

And Farage is busy in the EU Parliament burning the bridges the rest of the UK will have to rebuild. That is if they want access to the single market which is vital for UK financial services industry which makes up some 11% of UK total tax receipts.

More likely Angela Merkel and other stabilizing actors will have to work at preventing others from exacting petty revenge or repaying old slights or just making sure a Leaver won't be too successful.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/george-osborne-corporation-tax-cut-wrong-negotiations-wto-lemy-a7118571.html

WHO CARES, HONESTLY. GOOD FOR BRITAIN. BRINGS LOTS OF FOREIGN MONEY.

Perhaps. Or it's more of a panic measure meant to stem the flow from every door and window and away from UK.

And whether it's good for Britain to have even more difficult EU negotiations, refer to above.

[Grytviken]

The British national broadcasting company is running a statistics based scare campaign about the future of British economy, now that the vote is over? And there's only current and new investors to convince to stay or go somewhere else?

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If you find news telling of positive effects of Brexit, do post them.


No, though it's standing a little shaky at the moment.
And he has a point about a political collapse. Economic collapse and the rest, we'll see.

 Are you quite sure of that power dynamic? See:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Figures have been floated by the Leave camp like that German car exports to UK is 20%. But Germany would have perfectly good trade deals to the rest of the world, those cars would find another buyer.
While the UK would have to call upon their handful of experienced trade negotiators to BEGIN negotiations on hundreds of trade deals with very unwilling partners, since most of them would want to first see what kind of deal the UK gets from EU, since that defines the rest of UK's trade relations.

All the keys to the UK's economic kingdom would be in EU's hands.

And Farage is busy in the EU Parliament burning the bridges the rest of the UK will have to rebuild. That is if they want access to the single market which is vital for UK financial services industry which makes up some 11% of UK total tax receipts.

More likely Angela Merkel and other stabilizing actors will have to work at preventing others from exacting petty revenge or repaying old slights or just making sure a Leaver won't be too successful.


Perhaps. Or it's more of a panic measure meant to stem the flow from every door and window and away from UK.

And whether it's good for Britain to have even more difficult EU negotiations, refer to above.

Everything you say is pure speculation. You don't need to be in the single market to trade with the EU. The UK had a deficit investing and trading with the EU in the single market. Please just admit you have no clue how the EU single market operates.