We Are Reverting

[Shemaforash]

Revert all sweetspot changes, they abuse the animation and ruin the feel of when an attack should actually hit

[Prpavi]

I suggest you hurry it up, if you wait much longer there won't be anyone to release it to.

Looking forward to the patch.

[gallonigher]

I agree with most of what I read on the OP so bring on the patch! 

[xxkaliboyx]

revert Long Spear LOLSTabs


Fuck pikes. let them rot

[Taser]

Changes!

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Hermit and Colbert aside, I do agree with some of the changes. I don't think 1h is overly powerful but I am 1h (altho I don't use a 1h with stab) so maybe I'm biased. Altho I will say I hate 1h overhead with a passion. It can be great but its too slow to turn with that and I miss ppl sometimes.

Anyway I am definitely for a fighting system in which you try to mess the person up and having them block incorrectly instead of hitting them before they can react. I don't think its overly a problem but it can be a problem at times.

[XyNox]

The already cancerous STR archer meta is further promoted by the increase of bow requirements. If you increase the requirement of a bow, you buff it. Keep in mind that you can skill up to 4 PD more than the requirement to get 14% bonus damage per PD. With PD increasing accuracy since the Tydeus Era, there is no reason not to always skill PD exceeding the bow requirement you are using by 4. With 7 PD requirement bows available, every archer skills 11 PD to max out damage on all bows, and won't face any malus other than the opportunity cost of not having more athletics. This opportunity cost is not very high since the weight on quivers makes kiting impossible in the first place. 7 PD requirement bows and PD increasing accuracy are pure madness. The result is an archer who hits as hard as an Arbalest user with similar accuracy, but at 6 or 7 times the rate of fire.

Rico, I have to say you are probably one of the most rational members of this community I have come across. The indicated parts here though pose a highly subjective opinion.

I do not really see how anyone is to judge whether a class-meta being str/agi centric is considered cancerous. Claiming that skilling for req + 4 PD is the obvious practice also seems just quite unconsidered. When we are talking about bows that have low PD requirements, sure, maxing your PD 4 over the requirement still gives you enough skill points to get agi/WM/ath values that are sufficient enough to not be completely helpless when it comes to melee. With bow requirements as high as 7, meaning a mandatory 33 points spent in STR, the story is very, very different.

You seem to completely abandon hybrids there which, I would assume, is relevant to more people than those who strictly plan on playing pure archers.

[McKli_PL]

hmmm why do you want to change so hardcore this beautiful game, seriously in my humble opinion balance between classes and weapons/armors are just perfect, utilisation of str/balanced/agi builds are just based more on player skill more than ever only one thing is horrible i mean rubberbanding, sometimes server is so awful that is hard to describe

[Jona]

While there are definitely plenty of low str-requirement weapons out there, I don't think the str requirement cap should be pushed too high. The great maul/long maul currently have a 24 str requirement, a change made after the high level patch. If xbows are keeping the 24 str cap for the arbalest, I think that all melee weapons should just be adjusted according to this standard, where  24 str = high str requirement, and then all the currently 12 str-requirement or so weapons can be bumped up much higher. MAYBE push the 24 str cap up to 27 for the really heavy weapons, like mauls and what not, but I've never been a fan of str caps simply because all it does is limit your options, and crpg is all about doing whatever you want, at the cost of efficiency. If there were some way to simply punish someone using a long maul with 1 str, while still allowing them to use it, that'd be ideal. But we all know that won't happen anytime soon, which is why I'd recommend conservative str requirement increases. Not to mention almost all of the high str weapons are already far slower than their low requirement counterparts, thus meaning you are far more likely to "break animations" with something like a wooden stick than a warhammer.

[Rico]

@Xynox
I don't understand fully what you are saying. Please elaborate your point further.
I will tell you what I think I understood and reply, but keep in mind that I may be wrong.

I do not really see how anyone is to judge whether a class-meta being str/agi centric is considered cancerous.

The reasoning is based on the observation that weak archers who can kite are less dangerous to infantry and cavalry than strong archers who can't. It is evident that horses currently die quite quickly against STR archers, so cavalry loses their role of being a natural counter. Furthermore, the ability for infantry to catch up with archers who try to run away is not very valuable when you compare it with the archer's ability of trying multiple times to deliver a headshot that deals more damage than an Arbalest while the infantry player is approaching; and these attempts are usually quite successful because PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed. This is an issue because archers compromise the fun of melee players if they are too strong and don't face any real trade-offs when deciding to maximize STR.

A sophisticated archery balance would make most combinations of STR and AGI except for the very extreme ones equally viable. For example, a 15/30 archer would be as good as a 30/15 archer, except for different reasons. The 15/30 archer I have in mind has superior mobility and accuracy than the 30/15 archer, and while he is unable to deal serious damage against infantry players, he excels at hunting other archers. The 30/15 archer hunts infantry, but gets into serious trouble because of accuracy issues when fighting the rapidly moving 15/30 archer. In the current balance, a 30/15 archer is powerful against infantry, but also powerful against other archers because he is just as accurate as his 15/30 counterpart. On top, the 30/15 archer even gets higher missile speed than the 15/30 archer, making the shots easier to land. Agi archers on the other hand get only a part of what the STR archer gets, namely the accuracy part, but not the damage, not the missile speed, and due to heavy quivers, the mobility is not as notable as you would expect.

This makes STR the strictly better skill for archers, which means it is best practice to maximize it. This leads me to my next assumption.

Claiming that skilling for req + 4 PD is the obvious practice also seems just quite unconsidered.

The arguments above explain why I make this claim. But there is also empirical evidence. To my knowledge, the majority of DRZ archers uses such builds, and I doubt I am defying common sense when I point out that they are the most deadly archers in cRPG ever since the mod exists. When you look at competitive play, you look at people who do well; these are not few unrepresentative prodigies who play well with any class, build and equipment, but homogeneous collectives who maximize their performance through streamlined builds and above-average play. I don't think it is wrong to primarily look at successful competitive collectives, because balance decisions are all about creating an environment of fair competition for as many people as possible.

You seem to completely abandon hybrids there which, I would assume, is relevant to more people than those who strictly plan on playing pure archers.

Hybrids cannot be better than pure builds because hybrids can do more than one thing. They knowingly handicap themselves in their main skill to get an extra area where they aren't exactly good but at least don't fail completely. For example a hybrid can shoot and fight in melee, but note that they can only do one of the two at the same time. An archer who invests 100% of his skills into ranged and shoots 100% of the time is better than an archer who invests 50% of his skills into ranged and 50% into melee, and then shoots 50% of the time and melees 50% of the time: 100%x100%=100%; 50%x50%+50%x50%=25%+25%=50%; 100%>50%

As soon as you have melee teammates, shooting 100% of the time is going to work, because even though there might be a 4v5 melee situation, your 4 teammates can stall the 5 enemies for long enough for you to shoot some; since you position yourself in a smart way.

Hybrids are theoretically and practically always inferior to pure builds. The problem however is that players can decide their builds freely, and there is no effective way of forcing somebody not to go for pure builds. If there are people who enjoy playing hybrid, or do so out of fairness towards others, they might play hybrid, but we will never get the guarantee that everyone chooses to play hybrid. As soon as there is at least 1 person who does not play hybrid but a pure build, he raises the bar of competitive archery gameplay and thus our foundation for balance. Keep in mind that balance is about creating an environment of fair competition for as many people as possible, and hybrids cannot be in the focus of balance, because they deliberately choose to undermine their competitive potential for reasons beyond our control.

Where to draw the line when it comes to what a hybrid should still be able or already be unable to do is of course difficult. I am not the right guy to decide the next big archery balance change. But it's clear to me that the pre-Raylin balance worked better than the post-Raylin balance: No high missile speed for high-tier bows so that Agi archers get the effective-shot-distance-advantage over STR archers, and no 7PD bows which make 11PD non-hybrid archers incredibly strong, and overall lower requirements so that low-tier bows have a notably (not only cosmetically) lower damage potential than high tier bows.

[imisshotmail]

There is no problem with agility, people don't swing weapons too fast at all.

Strength is a huge problem, people are too tanky, melee and archers hit too hard.

[imisshotmail]

Also crossbows were never OP on balanced maps, the only reason people thought crossbows were OP is because the map rotation sucks and lets ranged players camp in places cavalry can't get to. Revert crossbows to how they were and change the map rotation.

[MURDERTRON]

The maps need a serious review.  Most of them are essentially uncavable and yet have needless huge hills where archers can shoot from continuously like its Bunker Hill.  Also huge hills take away damage potential for cavalry and funnel them into predictable kill zones.  I don't really understand the obsession with maps needing to have iconic features, they generally make for horrible gameplay.  Yes, generic village A and C were better maps, especially since they didn't have roof access.

Also, forcing melee builds to have IF was a pretty bad idea.

[a_bear_irl]

Although we highly appreciate the work Raylin has put into contributing to cRPG and would like to emphasize that the majority of the new items since revival patch were made thanks to his tireless efforts, we realized that it is not economic to keep working with his balance patch. cRPG is facing a difficult crisis due to the broken compiler and unavailable devs, and especially at a time like this, we cannot let internal politics undermine the progress of the mod. Permanently compromising balance to express gratitude for the outstanding work he has done in the past is no option.

the idea that some drooling retard sperg has been demanding the balance be kept awful on purpose so that people use his items is pretty hilarious, and in a normal game where the people doing balance actually play the game i'd be amazed but this is crpg so i'm not even surprised.

now while you're reverting godawful balance changes that literally nobody who played the game ever liked, how about getting rid of the turn speed nerf? reminder that the only people who wanted it were CMP and paul, people who hadn't played in years even back then

[McKli_PL]

I will tell you what I think I understood and reply, but keep in mind that I may be wrong. (Yep ur, nothing new  )
The reasoning is based on the observation that weak archers who can kite are less dangerous to infantry and cavalry than strong archers who can't. It is evident that horses currently die quite quickly against STR archers, so cavalry loses their role of being a natural counter. Furthermore, the ability for infantry to catch up with archers who try to run away is not very valuable when you compare it with the archer's ability of trying multiple times to deliver a headshot that deals more damage than an Arbalest while the infantry player is approaching; and these attempts are usually quite successful because PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed. This is an issue because archers compromise the fun of ->Pseudo<- melee players if they are too strong and don't face any real trade-offs when deciding to maximize STR.

well, how to describe something to a guy who knows shit about archery in this game, in a nice words i will try anyway
builds for archers:

Old sql rus bow/longbow pre patch build->18/27<- still ultra good and solid build, extremely good versus all kind of archers, ok vs Infantry if pewpew is headshot hunting only or bodyhiting agi/peasants
old sql Uzi build nomand bow ->15/30<- killer of agi inf and all kind of pure trowers builds, very good for players who can't play in FPS mode just run and spam(arrows)

and novadays builds after big revival patch: (i will focus on them more coz they are very popular)

->24/21&21/24<- the best and more easy to play than other builds for every one, beginners/full pro doesn't matter and most versatile build ever, there are no big cons for those builds exept maybe they are fragile
but like ppl are saying learn2dogde and l2b.
Pros are just awesome very fast archer can kite like he wants, and most important thing is he can fast switch places and this little thing is just crucial for archers witch good ath u can just headshot hunt like u want no need a good spot coz if u know how to dodge enemy archers/trowers are not so deadly and another crucial thing is u can go with your team without any hesitation that is  a) ur not too slow like on str build u go with a team and support them b) if ur team wants to retreat or regroup it's just so simple no need to stress like on str that u will be an easy target for enemy cav attacking from behind (in most cases it's just an end for str pewpew or he gonna get ganked by melee)

->27/21&27/18<-the high level 'hybrids'-  personaly i don't like these builds and i will try to explain why to choose other path it's better,
27/21 is a +1 PD more than classic 24/21 but that 'one point' it's like over-investing, if u can't '1 headshot 1 kill' against ->real melee<- (not some shiters in pyjamas with zero brain) with a rusbow/longbow why even to add this point and get low PS, if melee can survive HS and archer is on low PS it's just bit dramatic still it's very playable build.

27/18 same build but with more PS, same as above no 1HS=1 frag but with more PS it's easier to 'finish' opponent, but the biggest con for 27/18 is low Ath, if a bunch of happy enemy players are just rushing u and u can't 1hs them u  can't kite so fast like with 7ath, so that's why i don't like those two builds, they are very good vs cav but all in all path of classic 24/21 or 30/15 are much better imo

->30/15<- eSuba ranger,  extremely dangerous build and hardest build to play or adapt, very low accuracy and ultra slow releasing arrows can be a huge no go for beginners, if some is dedicated enough to live with cons like: low ath- i mean it's kurwa so low with rusbow and 2 quivers that u just can't even  switch places, if ur team is a just a bunch of pseudo melee u will be so pissed like hell when cav and enemy team is attacking from behind, there is no way even to kite a ->fully plated player<- with 30/15 so there are two options get good with headshooting and get even better at melee with ->4 wpf<- on, so in tldr 30/15 build is very hard to adapt and it's a very reliable on melee in archer team, with shit team is just a hardcore BUT with a good and stronk melee this fucking build will shine like a diamond.
last tldr:  i know only ->4 ppl<-who can play very solid with 30/15 so if so agi crossbow dumbo or other braindamged pseudo 2h will write a bulshit like something that str archers are OP when most of archer player base is 24/21 i will piss on his grave

->33/15&30/21- Strat ALL IN builds: it's same as above but with 0 PS and sometimes 0 ath (min maxed build), its an AWP build for long time huge PD and ok accuracy (naked or half naked EQ) means that on STRAT battlefield ur just a turret, headshots are deadly and hunting for enemy archer is also easy with 30/21 cos of huge PD/WPF but like most of the players and balancers Battle server is THE THING, so those builds are not so good for a battle server, no PS means ur dead or just so dedicated to block enemy player until he will die on tyfus, low ath means everyone just attacks u  whenever they wants, u need a good spot on battle server to shoot, and u need a big protection from melee so it's a good build but for strat i played it for a long time but it's shit on daily basis, just way too much cons to bypass to shine

'PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed' nope, it's not working like u describe, PD will not lower ur crosshair on any bow and missile speed is a constant value, PD only gives u straight projectile parabolic aka native lasser shooting less up/down trajectory, that's why now 'shitty' bows are so popular.

[Molly]

I suggest you hurry it up, if you wait much longer there won't be anyone to release it to.

Looking forward to the patch.

This really.
I know it's all voluntary work and we shouldn't expect anything and all that.
But if you wanna change something, you're better talking about days not weeks nor months...

Change is always good. Mixes things up.
Except 1h. I used to play quite a lot 1h no shield before the changes and it was a rarely seen and rather weak thing to do. The 1h patch did something good and is one of the few success stories of this mod. Leave 1h be. It's perfectly fine in its current state.