Meanwhile in Oregon! Pt Deux

[Tagora]

Oregon habbenings

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>family owns lands since the 1870s
>fed has wanted your land for years to turn into a wildlife reservoir (i.e. make money)
>never sell to them regardless of their constant jewry
>2001, routine bush fire on property
>tell fire department beforehand, accidentally 100 acres of federal land, put it out yourselves
>2006, lightning storm starts bush fire on your property
>start backfire to push it away from your private property
>cops show up next day and press charges , go to court
>get tried and convicted, sentenced to a year in jail
>go to prison for roughly one year
>get let out, government says you've served your time
>2011, feds want your land again, still won't sell
>feds issue re sentencing convicting you of domestic terrorism
>minimum of 5 more years in federal prison
>now convicted of terrorism and must serve 5 more years in prison
>150 men and women strong armed milita with tons of ex-military occupy gouverment building
>boolicker liberals call them terrorists, don't look into what happend
>claim if they would be muslim or black they would be treated like terrorists so they can do their moral circle jerk and make it about race
>some are so tolerant to want these rednecks to be murdered by the feds (you don't negotiate with terrorists suddenly)
>paid /pol/ shills call them traitors, ignore them

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/energy-environment/key-things-to-know-about-the-militia-standoff-in-oregon/2016/01/03/4d16a348-b249-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html

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edit: /pol/ sauce + will update w/ moar pics and links later

[AntiBlitz]

Whats the issue?  I havent looked up anything beyond the articles you posted.

1) "said they lit fires on federal land in 2001 and 2006" - Dont light fires on land that isnt yours, especially the federal government's land.  If you break the law, what do you expect is the recourse of your actions?

2) Eminent Domain - If the government wanted your land, they could take it regardless of what you have to say, they dont have to ask for it.  So I dont understand the issue; if people believe the government is upset over some old ranchers not selling their land, and decided to put them in jail a bunch like a child who didnt get their way, then they arent the brightest of folks.

3) I love how fucking dazzled people get over constitutional rights, people have no idea what 99% of them mean and just make up shit.  "muh second, can own guns, fuck out me way, try and take my guns, ill die before you get em" or shouting in the streets while jumping up and down on a police cruiser "fuck you pig! you and the government cant stop me, its muh first ammendment rights! freedom of speech bitch!"

so having watched the Dear Friends video, this is all over them being charged as domestic terrorists.  Now we have radical god fearing "patriots" taking control of government property while armed.

[Sir_Hans]

The issue is really over the extent of the punishment... to be exact the extension of the ranchers prison sentence from the initial sentencing of like 3-6 months served... to like 4 1/2 years.
I'm kind of disgusted by it really. IMO a hefty fine and maybe a few months at most behind bars would definitely suffice.
I mean there's husbands out there who beat their wives unconscious and get sentenced to less than 4 years in prison so wtf. Even people charged with involuntary manslaughter get less time, all they did is burn a bunch of the forest, something which actually occurs fairly often in nature anyways.

I think the militia needs to be focused, they've been asked many times by reporters and it doesn't really seem like they have any answer to what would end their occupation. And that's kind of dumb. If they all came together and said "we will leave peacefully if the case is re-examined by a higher court WITH a jury of peers", they would probably get their wish. With a jury the 4 1/2 years would probably get thrown out or reduced to months... But I do respect the protesters right to protest and they seem to be doing it in a pretty non-violent and non-disruptive (to the community) so I don't really care much, I say let them do their thing. I will be pretty shocked if this ends up turning violent but it could, who knows.

[Tagora]

There's a lot of misinformation out there.  You do have to do waaaay, waaay too much research to get actual facts about this incident.

Even people charged with involuntary manslaughter get less time, all they did is burn a bunch of the forest, something which actually occurs fairly often in nature anyways.

AFAIK -- the land that was burnt was pretty dry and arid.  Just grass and tumbleweeds.  Here's a picture of what that area looks like:

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I think it's actually pretty easy to conclude that the 5 year re-sentencing was pretty fucked up.  They served their time and the government comes back, coincidentally all the while trying to get them to give up their ancestral land, and tells them that it's not over and they have to go back for 5x the amount of time they just spent in prison for the same crime.  That's so wrong on so many levels.

[Oberyn]

How large an area ended up burning, exactly? Considering these sorts of fires happen all the time naturally and burn up hundreds of hectares, the exact extent of the "damage" caused should be relevant.
And I'd guess that resorting to imminent domain can be a pain in the ass, politically. Potentially all sorts of repercussions. Much simpler to put gentle pressure on private citizens, usually with the carrot (money) but the stick if necessary (legal shenanigans), if their land stands in the way of some project that has money and influence riding behind it. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Meh just saw it was a hundred hectares...that's pretty bad tbh. Other point still stands, these people def fucked up, but some lawyer would have to go and look at precedent to see exactly what is considered a proper legal punishment for it, and if this one is disproportionate.

[WITCHCRAFT]

Why did they decide to put their foot down and form an actual acting militia / terrorist cell / coup / junta / whatever over this? Why did this miscarriage of justice bring the into action instead of PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE SHITTY THE GOVERNMENT DID THAT WAS WORSE THAN THIS THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME WHERE WERE YOU GUYS THEN HUH???

I think it's actually pretty easy to conclude that the 5 year re-sentencing was pretty fucked up.  They served their time and the government comes back, coincidentally all the while trying to get them to give up their ancestral land,

rofl

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[Asheram]

Why did they decide to put their foot down and form an actual acting militia / terrorist cell / coup / junta / whatever over this? Why did this miscarriage of justice bring the into action instead of PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE SHITTY THE GOVERNMENT DID THAT WAS WORSE THAN THIS THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME WHERE WERE YOU GUYS THEN HUH???

rofl

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How long does one need to be on land for it to be considered ancestral because those Indians came from somewhere else as well.

[LordBerenger]

How long does one need to be on land for it to be considered ancestral because those Indians came from somewhere else as well.

About 350.....years

[Tagora]

Why did they decide to put their foot down and form an actual acting militia / terrorist cell / coup / junta / whatever over this? Why did this miscarriage of justice bring the into action instead of PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE SHITTY THE GOVERNMENT DID THAT WAS WORSE THAN THIS THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME WHERE WERE YOU GUYS THEN HUH???

rofl

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Oh yeah, fuck, I guess the land belonged to dinosaurs first.  Because that's relevant right now.   Also, citation needed.  Bring up their property lines and plot out exactly which land was taken from which part of x tribe and look up a local history and tell me how it was taken so we can actually get to the real shit, yeah?

So, basically it's bad to "stand up" to the government because we live in a post-modern world?  Is that what you're saying?  i.e. Bad shit happened already and people did nothing, thus doing something now is wrong?  Interesting logic!

Meh just saw it was a hundred hectares...that's pretty bad tbh. Other point still stands, these people def fucked up, but some lawyer would have to go and look at precedent to see exactly what is considered a proper legal punishment for it, and if this one is disproportionate.

They already went to jail for it.  They thought it was over with.  This was all for the first fire in which they notified local authorities of their prescribed burn in the first place and when it fucked up they notified them of that too.  So there was no intent to cause damage but they accepted the prison sentence and went on with their lives.  Now the government is coming back and demanding the land from them and stating that the prison sentence wasn't long enough.  There was some really shady shit going on at the BLM and with the judge that oversaw their case.  I really recommend reading about it all because it goes into great depth, depth I can't possibly cover, and I feel like the truth is very grey.

I've been watching videos from inside the federal building that was taken over and it looks like there's far, far less people than what the "militia" stated.  It's fucking crazy how people are calling these dudes terrorists even though they haven't harmed anyone, haven't destroyed any government property (the ranchers aren't involved with this), and a lot of people there don't even have guns.  This shit is becoming so polarized because of the leftists and conservatives vying for control over the narrative. 

[Sandersson Jankins]

Only did give this story a cursory examination. Must admit, I'm shamefully eager to take the side of anyone attempting to defy the federal government.

Even so, it seems quite unfortunate that the Bundy fellows involved in that BLM dispute a while ago are also involved in this, from what I've read. Everyone locally thinks the Bundys are assholes, and they (in my opinion) had a much less reasonable case against the federal government.

These current dudes in Oregon seem (again, from only a cursory examination of the matter) to be much more in the right than the Bundy Ranch ones. From where I'm sitting, two poor motherfuckers tried to start a backburn or otherwise put out an agriculturally-needed fire, and the hot stuff spread right on the feds land. Now, maybe that should elicit a reckless endangerment or other similar charge for "hey you're stupid" but instead they charged them with arson and are throwing them back in jail after they've already done their time.

Arson seems incredibly unlikely, so the ruling and action taken by law enforcement is unjust.

Not sure at all what this'll do, aside from jack up firearms prices in the very short term. I mean fuck sake, I had Fox News on at work (gotta have that news in the morning for hotel cunts) and the headline at 7am was "GUN GRAB???"

Like fuck me, firearms being expensive is directly opposed to my selfish and personal desires.

Why did this miscarriage of justice bring the into action instead of PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE SHITTY THE GOVERNMENT DID THAT WAS WORSE THAN THIS THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME WHERE WERE YOU GUYS THEN HUH???

Firstly, I must defend juntas and militias. Junta is just such a nifty and cool word, and I do adore the concept of militias.

Anyway, I certainly understand your point; this situation alone is ludicrously paltry in comparison to things the federal government of the US has had a hand in, if not completely responsible.

But all those things presumably happened to people that the Oregon fellows didn't know. People that weren't kin nor coworker. We aren't all that likely to fight for strangers. We're not even likely to speak out for strangers, much less do something risky!

But when our kin and our friends get fucked with, humans tend to become far more active. I figure that's the question to your ostensibly rhetorical question.

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there isnt even anything in here LOL

[WITCHCRAFT]

So, basically it's bad to "stand up" to the government because we live in a post-modern world?  Is that what you're saying?  i.e. Bad shit happened already and people did nothing, thus doing something now is wrong?  Interesting logic!

wat

I didn't say nobody should do anything a bluh bluh bluh second ammendment late capitalism nihilsm eschatology

I just don't get why this is the straw that broke the camel's back. Is there something about it that tickles their patriotic funnybone extra hard or did they just take everything a step too far and now they have to walk the walk they talked? A dude was wrongly imprisoned for 5 years. Why didn't they get whipped into a militia/terrorist frenzy by all the folks who have been imprisoned for life or shipped off to Guantanamo or straight up killed in similar situations?

I guess it's just like Rosa Parks becoming a symbol of the civil rights movement. Shit it's just a lady on a bus calm down people what's the big deal. Makes a hell of a cultural touchstone though.

[Knute]

Oregon standoff cliff notes version:

A father & son tried to cover up poaching by committing arson, committed arson several more time and were eventually convicted. The sentence they received was lighter than federal law allowed so overturned by a higher court and now they're serving the rest of their time. Various anti-government types show up in their community and occupy a couple buildings at a wildlife refuge to protest.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area.  Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property.  Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.”  One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson.  The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations.  After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands.  Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence.  When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts.  The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.”  The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.”  In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served.

[Vibe]

Isn't it so that you can't go to jail twice for the same crime and that once you receive a sentence and it's hammered, it cannot be extended considering there's no development in the crime? What's the legal grounds on the government extending their sentences? I feel like we're not being told something.

[Tagora]

Oregon standoff cliff notes version:

A father & son tried to cover up poaching by committing arson, committed arson several more time and were eventually convicted. The sentence they received was lighter than federal law allowed so overturned by a higher court and now they're serving the rest of their time. Various anti-government types show up in their community and occupy a couple buildings at a wildlife refuge to protest.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

Press release that doesn't include in court quotations or anything.  They were never convicted of poaching, which would be easy as fuck to do, since biological evidence and arson evidence would be left behind.


People talk about the poaching as if it's the straw that broke the camel's back, but what's interesting is that they were never charged with poaching, but they'll never fucking acknowledge this type of shit:

Isn't it so that you can't go to jail twice for the same crime and that once you receive a sentence and it's hammered, it cannot be extended considering there's no development in the crime? What's the legal grounds on the government extending their sentences? I feel like we're not being told something.

It's some shit to do with federal and state court.  I don't understand it myself.

wat

I didn't say nobody should do anything a bluh bluh bluh second ammendment late capitalism nihilsm eschatology

I just don't get why this is the straw that broke the camel's back. Is there something about it that tickles their patriotic funnybone extra hard or did they just take everything a step too far and now they have to walk the walk they talked? A dude was wrongly imprisoned for 5 years. Why didn't they get whipped into a militia/terrorist frenzy by all the folks who have been imprisoned for life or shipped off to Guantanamo or straight up killed in similar situations?

I guess it's just like Rosa Parks becoming a symbol of the civil rights movement. Shit it's just a lady on a bus calm down people what's the big deal. Makes a hell of a cultural touchstone though.

As far as I'm aware, there is no higher order dictating government resistance, organizing based off of some highly complex hierarchy of injustice.

[Christo]

'murica