Spear and Sheild

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

It works, and it is playable, and it is fun, but I do not feel it is balanced. Before I offer my suggestions, I must first address the issue of teamwork. Those people who will reply to my suggestion with "Lol hoplite is for teamwork" can kindly go fuck themselves. I know spear and sheild users are supposed to work with the team, just like every other god damn class is supposed to work with the team. It is, however, unfair to suggest that the hoplite build must do that which every other class can--but does not--do.

To be quite frank I am sick of stabbing my enemies in the anus as they harass a teammate, only to be rewarded with a minimal damage stab which only distracts the enemy long enough for my teammate to stab his anus much harder than me and get the kill. Yes, that is "teamwork", but it's unfair. A class should not exist solely as a big, annoying distraction.
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What a "Good" Hoplite (too lazy to type "Spear and Sheild Guy") Generally Does In Kombat

In a normal scenario which is "optimal" for Mr. Hoplite, the large gaggle-fucks which are the opposing teams' formations approach one another at a choke-point of some sort. The hoplite stands near the front of his gaggle-fuck, his sheild almost always up, distracting the enemy with his very presence. The fight begins, and the hoplite waits patiently for an opening in the guard of one of his enemies--this generally happens when an enemy moves to attack a teammate nex to him: the enemy chambers, and Mr. Hoplite lunges in with his spear...

Glance. The bastard's wearing an above-average amount of armor, oh well.

The fight continues. Mr. Hoplite dances left and right, blocking the occasional pike-thrust or arrow. Once in a while an enemy will try to simply walk through the front of the hoplite's team's gaggle-fuck, but he is denied entry by the hoplite, who simply holds his sheild up and blocks the intruder. Occasionally Mr. Hoplite will thrust with his spear, hoping to distract an enemy or damage a sheild. Again, finally, an enemy lets down his guard in order to attack one of Mr. Hoplite's teammates. Mr. Hoplite sees this from the safety of his force-feild sheild, and stabs the attacking enemy before he can complete his attack.

A hit! But the enemy is still completely alive, even though his face has been horribly mangled from previous hits, and there two arrows stick out of where his nipples should be. The enemy gaggle-fuck surges foward, somebody with a practise sword gets behind Mr. Hoplite in the confusioin, and beats him to a pulp.

I think you get what I'm trying to say: Mr. Hoplite's attacks did no fucking damage. Either they glanced, or they didn't do much if they connected.
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That is the primary issue I see with spear and shield builds. Citing anecdotal evidence: It generally takes me at least four or five stabs to kill an opponent wearing moderate armor. I have no problem hitting him, for he underestimates me and tries to spam (noob), but I simply cannot kill the bastard.

I think that the War Spear, Red Tassel Spear, and Spear should so more thrust damage. The War Spear, the most epic of the spears, does 28 pierce damage. The Short Spear, the most sucky of the spears, does 26. What the fuck? I know someone is going to tell me to use the awlpike, which does alot of poking damage, however its far to slow for hoplite use. My knowledge of how this game works is  limited, AND I REALLY FUCKING HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT I'M TYPING. I'm ENDING THIS POST WITH RAGE, BECAUSE MY DAMNED THINGY IS TWITCHING UP AND DOWN. DON'T TELL ME TO PUT THIS IN MICROSOFT WORD OR NOTEPAD, JUST DON'T.

[ToxicKilla]

I agree with this. War spear at full speed on a rouncey into the back of someones head sometimes doesn't even hurt them and they're only wearing moderate armour.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Exactly.

I just said that to bump, really.

[Spa_geh_tea]

You cant do what you suggest, it would unbalance the game. Reason being, folks who dont spear/sheild using those spears will be rediculously fast with high damage weapons. Just not fair, now....there have been tons and tons of posts about how to properly be a hoplite. I'd know since I wrote one of the first ones back when was in the clan "hoplite". So, since the dawn of c-rpg there are these following suggestions to make spear/shields a more common and viable class.

Suggestions:
Add a second attack direction that requires a different block (obviously needs some balancing in speed and reach)

Shield bash(totally useless btw, hated it in other mods as it was more of a oh cool.....now this is annoying and useless)

Adjust the "hardcoded" speed penalties for spear/shielders

Give spears less than 140 length 1h swing animations(Of course we can eliminate overheads since that is and will look rediculous, but side swings with a shorter spear is quite possible, also the 1h animation will give the spear the true "hoplite overhead thrust")

Add a different attack animations using X (implemented in other mods, however the attack still only requires a down block)



Why none of these have ever come to pass......well, quite honestly the devs are too busy and no person with the skills to produce such codes has taken interest. Otherwords, no one gives a crap about spear/shielders. I wish they did and wish that they would become the majority in games, it certainly would move the game to be more tactical and less mosh pit.

[Cyclopsided]

These threads make me sad because there is a grain of truth in them.
they do so little damage AND the spears aren't even long or fast!
I have a hoplite right now on a second installation. I have finally found the most hoplite-true and useful combinations. A Light lance with a Huscarl. Now, using teamwork and amazing things I can get a decent KDR but nothing compared to if I was using any other character type like If I had a strength build 2h/Pole I could easily go 6 to 1 every map. It is not very impressive for a hoplite just because it does so little damage, so little speed, and still is shorter than most weapons? WHY?. Now, If I use an awlpike that works better! I can do pretty damn well thanks to the damage being high enough to get kills. But It is still short for a spear and shield [Don't even mention the shorter spears like war spear and such, what a laugh].

What makes spears good is that they are longer. That is what they are good at. They thrusted pretty fast, but they had the most range. They did OK damage but you could help out everyone by you, parrying blocks FOR them and such thanks to your long weapon.
It is sad that the only weapon with around correct length for a hoplite is the bamboo spear. I use the Light lance since it is the closest in appearance, but since it is geared for cavalry it is slower than it should be.

Oh well. we also don't have hoplons or anything which cover your left more than they cover you (and your easier to attack right side). Y'know, something that is conducive to teamwork and a shield that you could protect teammates with? oooh man that is a pipe dream.

Want to be a hoplite in this game right now? Bamboo spear for length, Awlpike for damage, and light lance for the looks, Warspear/redtassle/spear for the speed. You can't have what you want, but at least you can get something.
I would like to end this post on the note that my hoplite is getting a 2 to 1 KDR with a light lance and 4 PS. It isn't the worst thing on earth, but I  have to do everything right to get a 2-1 and rarely  a 3-1 KDR. That is a lot worse than a 2h or even a pikeman.

[Duster]

I agree with Oni's post, and would like to add that spear shield is quite a rewarding class to play on maps where you're not getting flanked constantly (elf tree fort, I'm lookin at you).

[Wildling]

Add over-head spear attack ;)

Check this thread out: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,6726.0.html

[Diavolo]

I have encountered people in the duel server using these spears mentioned without a shield. Then they seem to own pretty hard and can instakill(one-hit-kill) someone in decent (30+) armor. It really seems like spears get a big penalty in both speed and damage when used with a shield. If this was reduced/removed the hoplite class would be perfectly viable.

[Blondin]

Yeah but ppl with no shield must manual block, it's logical that they could do more damage.

It's always the same thing : balance.
Someone with a shield will do less damage that someone without (offensive/defensive) you can't have everything in one class (reach/damage/defense).

[OzyTheSage]

A class should not exist solely as a big, annoying distraction.

Hello horse archers.

I have encountered people in the duel server using these spears mentioned without a shield. Then they seem to own pretty hard and can instakill(one-hit-kill) someone in decent (30+) armor. It really seems like spears get a big penalty in both speed and damage when used with a shield. If this was reduced/removed the hoplite class would be perfectly viable.

Before the patch I had a pocket pike and an awlpike/kite shield which allowed me to be sort of a hoplite. With the awlpike I was getting hits off consistently, but it wouldn't really bother me if I killed them or not. The problem is you have to be at the right distance and you have to lunge at them in order to get a good hit. The penalty you get when using a shield is a major factor in this, since when I put my shield away I was not only faster and hit harder, but I could hit enemies that were closer to me without worrying about glancing off. I've not used the regular spears for this though so I can't speak from sexperience, unfortunately.

So, the solution would be to have certain spears not get a penalty with a shield. I remember some spears had this stat, but from what I understood it didn't do anything. Just put a functional one on some spears and it would be more viable. The question is, which spears would get the bonus? Either that, or in your little example from the first post you were not lunging (EDIT: despite the fact that you said you were). Lunging is very important. Either that or in some situations when there's less danger you could put the shield on your back.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

I did not know that the spears which look like they should be used with a shield (spear, warspear, penisspear) still suffered from the shield penalty. I do not know what this penalty entails.

I spelt shield wrong alot.

[chaosegg]

I was just thinking about this subject last night- and basically:

Thrust speed needs to be increased for nearly every weapon. (for realism sake)
And perhaps strength/agility vs weapon wt could have some effect on thrust speed.

Swords and spears particularly have/had their thrust made nearly useless by being forced to stab the sides and feet of people,
and do other equally ridiculous unrealistic things.

I guess some of this got fixed lately, since pikes/LoLspears are now stabbing me to death point blank, (really the most OP thing in CRPG now btw)
but those guys don't have shields.

I am still sometimes getting stuck in the stab animation while trying to thrust a sword at someone I am standing next to, only to have it do absolutely nothing to them.
I guess I suck and need to practice stabbing feet and other edges of someone's profile?

[Atreides]

You should just avoid using a spear/shield combo to me.

Enemies can easily down-block and you can't hurt them at all. Only a matter of time before they corner you and break your shield.

Not to mention spearing is extremely slow, and if you're too close you can't thrust the spear at all.

Plus the fact that even though you're holding a shield, it doesn't constantly protect you like a real shield would. If you aren't pressing the "block" button, you're screwed.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Yes Altreides, spear and sheild sucks. Hence my original post, and the purpose of this thread.

I must say, however, that I am perfectly able to defend myself in one-on-one, and even against multiple opponents. I can block their attacks, and hit them. The issue here is that I CANNOT KILL THEM.

[PieParadox]

Serious question, why exactly does this class need to be implemented/ balanced along with the other classes? To me it seems like its slightly under-useful since its a hybrid. Some class hybrids are just not viable and I feel like the hoplite one just is not. (Why not balance crossbow/archer, etc.)

Might as well go 1h/shield, or you can just get a long spear if you're going for support. I haven't played this hoplite build, however, so feedback is welcome.