No Germans Allowed

[Turkhammer]

PPle on barricade were REALLY in danger, it was civile war... only fearfull dumbs think we are in war in our streets nowdays.

You didn't answer my questions about : when have guns ? At home or in streets ?

I did answer your question.  You didn't answer mine.

[Paul]

...

Ye, my opinion is based on my experience with the people and circumstances in Central Europe. It might be different in the US - at least for some regions. It depends on the general mindset of the population and the competence of the government forces. In South Africa I'd probably want to own a gun as well.

[Butan]

(click to show/hide)

Hey, man. You're a reasonable motherfucker. I ain't got a single issue with you enjoying living in a significantly less-armed society; just as you probably don't have a problem with me living in a place where firearms are pretty much fucking ubiquitous.

I would argue that my home has a culture in which the average person does feel that an individual, especially one with dependents or other loved ones, have a responsibility to be well-trained and reasonably-armed. The city of Kennesaw that I go to university in passed the first law "mandating" firearm ownership for all heads of household/property owners. Of course, nobody's ever been prosecuted for NOT having a firearm...clearly, it is a display of ideology rather than a pragmatic law.

The intent behind citizenry around here being well-armed isn't specifically to curb spree/mass shootings, terrorism, or even crime. It isn't a practical sort of practice like that; but more of an ideal that a well-armed and like-minded society is one that we'd collectively rather live in.

I absolutely agree with you in that I don't at all envy law enforcement having to deal with a multi-shooter situation. Most people claiming desire to act the part of the hero in a real situation like this don't have the training necessary to mitigate panic. I've got no illusions about myself in this. Even if concealed carrying a firearm, my first priority is solidly to GET THE FUCK OUT. Only intend to fire a single shot or more if my ass is cornered and about to become a statistic.

Even so, I consider consistent firearm carry to be much like carrying a knife, albeit far less commonly used. I've got a pocketknife on me in case I have to cut shit open. I've got a firearm in case I have to shoot shit.

I recognize that most people on EU don't know shit about me; but I reckon most on NA would identify me as a rather kind and gentle fellow.

(click to show/hide)

by that I mean I'm fucking gay ofc

I don't think I fit in so well to the "trigger-happy gun-owner" characterization that gets thrown around. I sincerely don't wish to hurt anyone. But unfortunately, some folks aren't the same as me. If a person initiates a violent action against me (within reason, not talking about a bit of a drunken scuffle...plus carrying a firearm while intending to get drunk is SHIT SHIT SHIT DONT DO THAT), they have forfeited any right to personal safety. Society should not tolerate those that, either out of malice or perceived necessity, commit violent acts against others.

So, uh. Yeah. Wall of text while I had a few mins downtime at work. Why the fuck did I even post rofl

Couldnt agree more. This is why I love USA.

Its mostly a cultural problem. In France, most of my acquaintances would think I'm slightly mad, at least weird, to even own a house-stored blade longer than 8 inches. So guns?... Must be a complete nutjob, maybe a nazi.
To me, owning guns is not so much about curbing crime, but about being prepared, thus educated to the responsability of having them. You dont even need to carry, simply the fact of knowing how to operate them, and what it can do, teach you how life is precious, and to be a responsible adult. An armed society is a polite one.

Then a real nutjob comes along and shoot people up, discrediting those that would have wished they were there, and ended those sack of shit themselves before they had time to pull the trigger on innocent people...

[Molly]

[...]
An armed society is a polite one.
[...]

I claim humongous bullshit on this specific statement

[Xant]

And one thing pepe and those like him don't understand is that statistics aren't a shield. "This is improbable!" won't stop anyone from having their way with you. It's like not wearing a motorcycle helmet because statistically you're more likely to not need it than you are to need it. And humans, unlike accidents, can seek you out and force violence on you. You can do a lot to minimize both the risks of violence and accidents, but at the end of the day, humans can't be controlled and accounted for, and you could be attacked for any number of reasons, ranging from random coincidence to someone deciding to do you harm.

[Algarn]

But selling guns like you'd sell anything else is retarded. And I love when someone says " BUT THEY'RE SEMI AUTO VARIANTS BRUH !1!!111!". Cos a 5.56x45 cartrigess is less lethal when fired in semi automatic mode, right ? If anything, civilian guns should be limited to low caliber pistols, anyone who wants one has to be traced and pass tests/provide medical evidence to prove they aren't mentally fucked up, and they should have to pass regular tests about their aim. I just facepalm quite hard when people say that gun control in America is fine atm, since civilians can even buy .50 rifles in some states, like why the hell not ? Being more armed than the police sounds good when it comes to defending MURICA, right ? No one would use these guns to kill people, right ?

Guns are fascinating, but they should be owned ONLY by the military when it comes to any caliber higher than 9mm (or 12G for hunting), no matter what.

[Xant]

You need to be very confident that you (and the people you want to protect) will come out ontop in any and all violent altercations that take place. I know that *you* are very confident that this is the case. Not knowing you IRL I cant judge if your faith is well placed or not.

But for the rest of us mortals who cannot guarantee we'll shoot first and best 100% of the time, we are safer if it's harder for the people who mean us deliberate harm (or are likely to fuck up) to get their hands on a lethal weapon (yes I know, a salad fork can be a lethal weapon too, but one that requires at least some effort on the part of the assailant).

That is why most people need guns to be able to defend themselves... even if the attacker doesn't have one. They're the equalizer (them, and Denzel Washington). An average family man isn't going to be able to fight off a couple of drugged up home invaders whether they're armed with guns, knives, or nothing. If that family man has access to a gun himself, and is on the defensive, his odds increase substantially -- especially if the opposition doesn't have firearms. A small girl/woman has little chance against most rapists; add a gun into the equation (and some training), and it's a different situation. And so on. Without guns, the violent thugs hold all the cards. It's the world of the strong and the ruthless. And criminals tend to be ruthless, if nothing else.

[Clockworkkiller]

But selling guns like you'd sell anything else is retarded. And I love when someone says " BUT THEY'RE SEMI AUTO VARIANTS BRUH !1!!111!". Cos a 5.56x45 cartrigess is less lethal when fired in semi automatic mode, right ? If anything, civilian guns should be limited to low caliber pistols, anyone who wants one has to be traced and pass tests/provide medical evidence to prove they aren't mentally fucked up, and they should have to pass regular tests about their aim. I just facepalm quite hard when people say that gun control in America is fine atm, since civilians can even buy .50 rifles in some states, like why the hell not ? Being more armed than the police sounds good when it comes to defending MURICA, right ? No one would use these guns to kill people, right ?

Guns are fascinating, but they should be owned ONLY by the military when it comes to any caliber higher than 9mm (or 12G for hunting), no matter what.

Yea, because good lord all the crimes committed with 50 cals and assault rifles, shit is rampant on the streets

[Xant]

That whole argument is as retarded as the argument about full vs semi auto. What does it matter? Someone killed by a .50cal bullet is just as dead as someone killed by a 9mm bullet.

[Lt_Anders]

Older stats, but(US only)...
*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when
a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and
rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was
present and violence occurred.

*Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent
burglaries; offenders were strangers in 28%.

*Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred
during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of
all households violently burglarized while someone was home
faced an offender armed with a firearm.

[Xant]

There is a very important lesson about being tough to be taken from shooting sprees. And that is a shooting spree - where someone comes in and shoots many people - ONLY happens when one side has the guns. Everyone remembers the Columbine High School tragedy. What few people remember is a year after I graduated from my high school, four guys came on campus drew guns and opened fire. The campus police, members of the faculty and even some students drew their guns and returned fire. The four original shooters turned and ran. Total body count....zero.

[Algarn]

Yea, because good lord all the crimes committed with 50 cals and assault rifles, shit is rampant on the streets

If I was a fucked up terrorist, I'd use an assault rifle. Why do American mass killers don't use assault rifles like AK-47s, I mean, this is common for any kind of drug dealer/terrorist to have an AK47. It's retarded to bring an SMG or a pistol when you have access to weapons ranging from assault rifles to Miniguns as long as you can have enough money to buy them.

[Xant]

If I was a fucked up terrorist, I'd use an assault rifle. Why do American mass killers don't use assault rifles like AK-47s, I mean, this is common for any kind of drug dealer/terrorist to have an AK47. It's retarded to bring an SMG or a pistol when you have access to weapons ranging from SMGs to Miniguns.

Because contrary to the common misconception, firearms don't have power levels á la roleplaying games. If you're not engaging targets to hundreds of meters, why do you need an assault rifle? A Texas traffic cop took out two AK-47 and bodyarmor equipped terrorists who attacked a cartoon seminar. With "nothing but" a pistol.

[Algarn]

Because contrary to the common misconception, firearms don't have power levels á la roleplaying games. If you're not engaging targets to hundreds of meters, why do you need an assault rifle? A Texas traffic cop took out two AK-47 and bodyarmor equipped terrorists who attacked a cartoon seminar. With "nothing but" a pistol.

A 9mm bullet has less stopping power than a 7.62mm obviously. You may survive while being shot directly with one 9mm bullet, but the odds for survival go down with anything higher. That's why I'm saying that, it's REALLY obvious that if someone goes full retard with a pistol, and if another goes full retard with a shotgun or an AK47/M4, it may end up worse for the second case.

Plus you may forget that a 9mm bullet doesn't really penetrate heavily armored SWAT/policemen. An armor-piercing 7.62 may actually penetrate their heavy armors. If civilians have access to high caliber weapons, it's obvious they're going to end up in wrong hands, no matter what. And these wrong hands will have better weapons than the cops, stuck with their little semi auto, low caliber pistols.

[mcdeath]

A 9mm bullet has less stopping power than a 7.62mm obviously. You may survive while being shot directly with one 9mm bullet, but the odds for survival go down with anything higher. That's why I'm saying that, it's REALLY obvious that if someone goes full retard with a pistol, and if another goes full retard with a shotgun or an AK47/M4, it may end up worse for the second case.

Plus you may forget that a 9mm bullet doesn't really penetrate heavily armored SWAT/policemen. An armor-piercing 7.62 may actually penetrate their heavy armors. If civilians have access to high caliber weapons, it's obvious they're going to end up in wrong hands, no matter what. And these wrong hands will have better weapons than the cops, stuck with their little semi auto, low caliber pistols.

At the same time even if civilians don't have access to high caliber weapons who is going to stop a terrorist from getting them?
You say that civilians having access will lead to the high caliber weapons ending up in wrong hands I just don't understand how taking those away from civilians will stop the wrong people from getting to them.