Author Topic: Turkey downed a Russian plane  (Read 21306 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2015, 10:15:22 pm »
+1
In the end it comes down to this: Russia is crawling forward, if slowly, in its evolution towards a civilized country. Turkey, on the other hand, is trying its best to go back to the 11th century. So if it comes to war, I know which side I'll be cheering for.
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Offline Ujin

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #181 on: November 26, 2015, 10:32:09 pm »
0
In the end it comes down to this: Russia is crawling forward, if slowly, in its evolution towards a civilized country. Turkey, on the other hand, is trying its best to go back to the 11th century. So if it comes to war, I know which side I'll be cheering for.
I can agree with that.

Offline Grytviken

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #182 on: November 26, 2015, 10:56:13 pm »
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What do you think NATO (USA) will do if Russia really strike Turkish bombers from Mediterranean, would that be enough for them to intervene and potentially start WWIII? Or we'll see similar scenario like in Ukraine, sanctions and threats but no real actions?

  Ukraine is not part of NATO and the problem isn't that Russia annexed Crimea, it's how they went about doing it and how they are trying to economically force the Ukraine into becoming a dependency of the Russian Federation. I don't think Putin wants to spend the rest of his days hiding in a underground bunker, so I doubt he will start WW3. What happened in Turkey was obviously a mistake/misunderstanding that took place and he wants to use it to his advantage politically, this is nothing new.

 Russia should be working with other nations since they have special diplomatic ties that could bring an end to the conflict. There's nothing illegitimate about the Syrian government except for the dictatorship that has been ruling it since 1973. Usually when a dictator or authoritarian figure starts killing their own people in cold blood you stop supporting him, in Russia's case they step in to do the dirty work for him. No amount of US or Russian troops/bombs are going to fix Syria.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:03:08 pm by Grytviken »

Offline Paul

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #183 on: November 26, 2015, 10:58:10 pm »
+1
Is Grytviken actually trolling with the 'USA USA' shit or is he serious? I can't tell anymore. He's doing a pretty good job.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #184 on: November 26, 2015, 11:02:17 pm »
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A popular opinion. Surprisingly, it's more popular outside of Russia than here. I could try going into details and explain the difference between spheres of interests and crazy imperial aspirations, but i guess there's no point.

I would be interested of your view of the situation as an insider.

Certainly Russia is very anxious to regain it's former status as a great power.
I wager a return to the past economic system doesn't sound sweet to those who remember how it was though.

Is Grytviken actually trolling with the 'USA USA' shit or is he serious? I can't tell anymore. He's doing a pretty good job.

I currently think it's 75% serious and 25% trolling.

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #185 on: November 26, 2015, 11:07:21 pm »
+4
Usually when a dictator or authoritarian figure starts killing their own people in cold blood you stop supporting him
Regrettably it's usually the opposite. US foreign policy since 1945 is a good example, supporting one brutal, hated dictator after the other.

Offline Grytviken

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #186 on: November 26, 2015, 11:11:58 pm »
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Regrettably it's usually the opposite. US foreign policy since 1945 is a good example, supporting one brutal, hated dictator after the other.

And when they cross a line they are dumped. All countries have to deal with those kind of regimes and dictators when there are no other options available, not just the US and Russia. Just because the US or Russia does something wrong or makes a mistake doesn't add any credibility to the other, which is what Putin supporters feed off of.

Offline Nebun

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #187 on: November 26, 2015, 11:19:27 pm »
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Regrettably it's usually the opposite. US foreign policy since 1945 is a good example, supporting one brutal, hated dictator after the other.

like this http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804
))) USA and Canada took a lot of banderas and other run away fascists in their countries right after ww2. I guess they had their purpose.
BTW if u think this is all fictional, even obama stated recently that it was a bad idea to remove ELECTED democratic leader from Iran in the past.
In my country moldova they changed government by sending just one rich man :) They didn't even fucking send Nuland, they mistreated us.
And recently due to leaders of the coalition in power in moldova stealing 1 bil dollars from national bank and almost collapsing whats left of economy. In parlament they pushed and won vote for re-election, to get rid of our shit president! And then US ambassador in moldova said that its a bad idea for president to change and that US government not supportive of that. In public. It was all over local news :))))
How the fuck is that possible that ambassador of another country is involved in internal affairs of another country. Ah yes Ukraine. ))
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Offline Nebun

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #188 on: November 26, 2015, 11:20:15 pm »
0
In the end it comes down to this: Russia is crawling forward, if slowly, in its evolution towards a civilized country. Turkey, on the other hand, is trying its best to go back to the 11th century. So if it comes to war, I know which side I'll be cheering for.

Liar :) knowing u - u'll be cheering for both to kill each other.
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Offline Grytviken

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #189 on: November 26, 2015, 11:26:38 pm »
0
like this http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804
))) USA and Canada took a lot of banderas and other run away fascists in their countries right after ww2. I guess they had their purpose.
BTW if u think this is all fictional, even obama stated recently that it was a bad idea to remove ELECTED democratic leader from Iran in the past.
In my country moldova they changed government by sending just one rich man :) They didn't even fucking send Nuland, they mistreated us.
And recently due to leaders of the coalition in power in moldova stealing 1 bil dollars from national bank and almost collapsing whats left of economy. In parlament they pushed and won vote for re-election, to get rid of our shit president! And then US ambassador in moldova said that its a bad idea for president to change and that US government not supportive of that. In public. It was all over local news :))))
How the fuck is that possible that ambassador of another country is involved in internal affairs of another country. Ah yes Ukraine. ))

 And the guy who made that website https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky#Criticism also thinks that Slobodan Milošević was framed by the CIA. lmao. Let's see him write a list of KGB atrocities, I bet you'd need more than one page for that. You somehow think that the USA's shortcomings give credibility to Russia, one thing has nothing to do with the other.

 After destroying the entire economy of Eastern Europe I find it hilarious how anyone can look to Russia for inspiration. Canada has less than 1/10th the population of Russia and has a much stronger economy and GDP, how does that work?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:36:19 pm by Grytviken »

Offline Nebun

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #190 on: November 26, 2015, 11:45:18 pm »
0
And the guy who made that website https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky#Criticism also thinks that Slobodan Milošević was framed by the CIA. lmao. Let's see him write a list of KGB atrocities, I bet you'd need more than one page for that. You somehow think that the USA's shortcomings give credibility to Russia, one thing has nothing to do with the other.

 After destroying the entire economy of Eastern Europe I find it hilarious how anyone can look to Russia for inspiration. Canada has less than 1/10th the population of Russia and has a much stronger economy and GDP, how does that work?

This is just one of the websites, he didn't write it probably. + this is just sums up some of the things. Read this if u want
https://uglyrumors.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/ukraine-nightingale-and-mockingbird/
but i don't recommend to u because it seams like u have a bag on ur head.
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Offline Grytviken

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #191 on: November 27, 2015, 12:12:37 am »
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This is just one of the websites, he didn't write it probably. + this is just sums up some of the things. Read this if u want
https://uglyrumors.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/ukraine-nightingale-and-mockingbird/
but i don't recommend to u because it seams like u have a bag on ur head.

I love these secret chocolate chip cookie CIA Moldovian folk stories, they are totally relevant to the conversation. You're right Albert is still alive and staying at the Illuminati hotel, we will be inserting him into the Ukraine soon so watch out.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:41:39 am by Grytviken »

Offline Leshma

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #192 on: November 27, 2015, 01:06:00 am »
+1
I would be interested of your view of the situation as an insider.

Certainly Russia is very anxious to regain it's former status as a great power.
I wager a return to the past economic system doesn't sound sweet to those who remember how it was though.

Russia before Bolsheviks - Empire ruled by Romanov dynasty, strong national identity
Russia under Lenin - Russian national identity being purged by communists
Russia under Stalin - part of Soviet Union, national identity still repressed but not like it was during Lenin
Russia after Stalin - gradual strengthening of Russian national identity
Soviet Union collapse - Russia going through major changes, democracy and capitalism instead of communism and planned economy
Russia under Putin - going back to Tsarist roots, national identity going strong

Putin has no intention of going back to Soviet times, he wants to create modernized version of Russian Empire.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #193 on: November 27, 2015, 02:05:07 am »
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Regrettably it's usually the opposite. US foreign policy since 1945 is a good example, supporting one brutal, hated dictator after the other.

As long he's anti communist (this is what they feed media and masses) and more importantly, willing to work toward common (American) interest.

Case Mobutu Sese Seko, Congolese dictator: came to power after military coup (organized by CIA and Belgian government), only because democratically elected leader was smart and dangerous man who worked for his country and opposed foreign interest. Mobutu stayed tyrant for quite a long period but he lost western support. They simply didn't need to support him any more because main threat has been dealt with.

Case Reza Pahlavi, Shah of Iran: He served a good purpose until USA came up with a different plan that included religious uprising which will create instability in the whole region. During Shah's reign democratically elected prime minister was executed after he was overthrown in coup d'etat organized by Central Intelligence Agency. Guilty of working in best interest of his country which was directly jeopardizing foreign interest.

Case Muammar Gaddafi: Came to power in military coup. Stayed in power for quite awhile. As tyrant was regularly granted support of western countries. When western strategy in northern Africa and middle East changed and some of his actions started to pose a threat to foreign interest, he was brutally executed.

Case Josip Broz Tito: Came to power after WWII, was known for balancing between blocks which granted his country some advantages over other communist countries which were fully dependent of Soviet Union. Due to change in American politics mid 60s and some of his silly moves, he lost favor of the west. Which put his country into downfall which ended in shattering of Yugoslavia 10 years after his death. Was smart enough to avoid assassination but silly to think he's going to form third block consisting of undeveloped countries.

Case Slobodan Milosevic: Instrumental in fall of Yugoslavia, had strong ties with foreign intelligence agencies. When he finished his job, he was taken care of.

Case Saddam Hussein: Was instrumental in coup that removed Qasim from head of the Iraq state. Qasim was very much like Saddam but he made a mistake when demanding fairer distribution of oil money. By doing that he signed his death sentence. Saddam was chosen to get rid of Qasim but he failed and had to flee to Syria. From there he organized another assassination attempt which was successful. Took him five years to come back to Iraq and take the throne for himself. Went into war vs American allies in middle east, attempted annexation which was start of his demise. Later, to overcome economic sanctions he traded oil for goods, mainly with Russia. Not even a decade later he was branded as Satan, who possessed weapons of mass destruction and was brutally executed. All in name of freedom and democracy, strictly to protect life of innocent Iraqi. Has nothing to do with western interest, no no...

Do you see a pattern here or should I continue?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:10:18 am by Leshma »

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Turkey downed a Russian plane
« Reply #194 on: November 27, 2015, 02:49:37 am »
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Russia before Bolsheviks - Empire ruled by Romanov dynasty, strong national identity
Russia under Lenin - Russian national identity being purged by communists
Russia under Stalin - part of Soviet Union, national identity still repressed but not like it was during Lenin
Russia after Stalin - gradual strengthening of Russian national identity
Soviet Union collapse - Russia going through major changes, democracy and capitalism instead of communism and planned economy
Russia under Putin - going back to Tsarist roots, national identity going strong

Putin has no intention of going back to Soviet times, he wants to create modernized version of Russian Empire.

Well, Putin would have it rather easy if Russia was back to Tsarist roots. That is, deriving the right to rule from birthright/lineage. It would not be hard to confuse the cult of personality around Putin for going back to Tsarist roots, but the macho "big-man" image is carefully projected with i.a. memorable escapades like riding bears without a shirt and accidentally finding ancient Greek vases on a leisurely dive, all with the goal of gaining popular support. It is still very very important for Putin.
Would the nation be ready to move to a monarchy, I wonder?

I must raise some doubt about the communists purging the national identity of Russians. It was different, perhaps replaced or extended upon. Is it all gone after the collapse, either?

There's certainly a lot of adoration of Soviet times: "A new history textbook proclaims that the Soviet Union, although not a democracy, was “an example for millions of people around the world of the best and fairest society”."
http://www.economist.com/node/11880594

The gathering of central control could work for either Soviet or Tsarist, I suppose.

I also quite doubt that he would return to Sovietism wholesale, but he would like an empire for sure.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism