hows that multiculturalism and gun control working out, france?

[Overdriven]

It was also divided into different squares for a 1000 years from different Muslim rulers, it was never stable, if anything the west brought economic growth, technology and trade. Look at India, they don't have half the natural resources the Middle-East does and they aren't blowing each other up in troves, they are one of the most powerful economies in the world.

The Ottoman Empire was pretty damn stable for the most part as far as Empires go.

No India just has to contend with Hindu vs Muslim nationalism and constant riots as a result. Not to mention a never ending war with Pakistan over Kashmir. Again another big post colonialism fuck up though admittedly one that was supported by a hefty portion of those who wanted Independence in India at the time.

There's entire networks of support behind these acts, painting it as just 7 people is fucking ridiculous. From mosques to imams to "charitable" organizations to religious/philosophical hobby groups to community "leaders" to extended families to etc, etc, these are the organisms in which these festering bacteria develop. Again, Islam is the sea in which the mujahedeen swim, to paraphrase Mao. As soon as there is a sizeable sunni muslim population anywhere these sorts of attacks began.
Honestly, such disengenuous bullshit comparisons. France also has millions of italian immigrants, guess how many of them commit terrorist attacks? Not even 4 out of 3 million. How many portuguese? How many orthodox? How many chinese? How many japanese? You compare proportionally to any immigrant population and algerian/moroccan (the vast majority of sunni muslims in France) are disproportionately represented. Fuck your mealy mouthed bullshit equivocations. Stop pretending there's nothing fucking wrong with your religion. When I see people like you stop making a list of extensive excuses why this is perfectly understandable every time some lunatic murders my people by the hundred I'll start giving a shit about your moronic opinion. I shit on the entire retarded clown circus you cunts call Ummah. It's the only true allegiance you have and it shows, and it is why the lunatics find it so easy to live among you. Entire circus starts circling the wagons and protecting the faithful, zero guilt or perish the thought an inkling of an understanding that maybe something is rotten in the state of Islam.

Comparing another Western European group to those who immigrate from further afield is idiotic. Particularly when those nations haven't felt the effects the influence of Western empire building and later anti-communist policies.

I have never painted it as understandable. I think these people are as fucked in the head as any one else. I think anyone who supports these things has some deep seated issues and misplaced beliefs. But that doesn't change the fact that you are painting a huge portion of the world's population with the same brush as a result of a minute part of it. Regardless of their support networks for these acts the point is the same. The vast majority of Muslims abide by the laws of the land, are peaceful and simply want to be left alone.

Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for instance for my wife to be sworn at and spat on by a total stranger because she's Muslim as a result of these bigoted attitudes? Because that's happened before. But you know, by your reasoning she's a Muslim immigrant so must be a terrorist so it's totally ok.

[Grytviken]

The Ottoman Empire was pretty damn stable for the most part as far as Empires go.

No India just has to contend with Hindu vs Muslim nationalism and constant riots as a result. Not to mention a never ending war with Pakistan over Kashmir. Again another big post colonialism fuck up though admittedly one that was supported by a hefty portion of those who wanted Independence in India at the time.

Because the Muslim rulers used ruthless measures to subdue the population.

 India's problems are mainly from the Muslims causing trouble, not because of past colonialism. Muslim invaders conquered parts of India, they weren't invited.

You know the Muslims are causing trouble when even the Buddhists want to kill them, when their whole religion revolves around pacifism.

[Grytviken]

Looks like some of them are shitting right back on you, feels good doesnt it? Here's a thought, maybe you should both stop shitting on each other and grow up. But no, too many lunatics living amongst you.

But let's be honest Oberyn, you dont want this to stop do you? You like preaching doom and gloom so i bet you're loving this. Bet you came in your pants when you heard 160+ people were dead, what a perfect opportunity to get on your little soapbox and talk about the end of days at the hand of the evil muslim. Sure, nothing's been confirmed yet but why wait? If you're desperate to have your pathetic little holy war then that's fine, just dont pretend you arent enjoying yourself.

Sorry it's not doom and gloom it's reality. Islam is a dangerous unregulated cult that is responsible for the most deaths in the past few decades of any religion or ideological group. The only respectable Muslims are the Turks who are an anomaly in a category of their own. Respectable because they aren't motivated by their religion but by their national interests, you don't have to agree with them to respect that.

[Overdriven]

Because the Muslim rulers used ruthless measures to subdue the population.

 India's problems are mainly from the Muslims causing trouble, not because of past colonialism. Muslim invaders conquered parts of India, they weren't invited.

You know the Muslims are causing trouble when even the Buddhists want to kill them, when their whole religion revolves around pacifism.

It has nothing to do with the Mughals. Seriously?!?!?! Mughal rule in India was extremely peaceful once it was near united and lasted for 100's years.

The situation with Hindu/Muslim tensions in India entirely spans from the British Empire and partition. It was British policy to incite Muslims and Hindus against each other as a means of control and that came to a head during the partition. Muslims and Hindu's even fought together in multiple uprisings against the British. Heck the only criticism most Hindus have of the Mughals is that they 'let' the British in through trade deals and alliances. Britain essentially used the Mughals as their in route.

[Grytviken]

It has nothing to do with the Mughals. Seriously?!?!?! Mughal rule in India was extremely peaceful once it was near united and lasted for 100's years.

The situation with Hindu/Muslim tensions in India entirely spans from the British Empire and partition. It was British policy to incite Muslims and Hindus against each other as a means of control and that came to a head during the partition. Muslims and Hindu's even fought together in multiple uprisings against the British. Heck the only criticism most Hindus have of the Mughals is that they 'let' the British in through trade deals and alliances. Britain essentially used the Mughals as their in route.

So the several terrorist attacks by Muslims recently in India have something to do with the Mughals and colonial Britain?

[Overdriven]

So the several terrorist attacks by Muslims recently in India have something to do with the Mughals and colonial Britain?

Not the Mughals but colonial Britain certainly. The Indian Government typically blame the attacks on Pakistani militants. A country that was created out of nothing during the partition when the Indian sub-continent was effectively divided by religion and whole communities were forced to move to their appropriate country.

[Oberyn]

Frankly Overdriven, if you had asked me 5 years ago I would've given you the expected and standard response. Today, particularly after listening to you pontificate on how this is merely karmic retribution for the sins of our ancestors, I can honestly say that as long as your wife isn't gunned down by an angry lunatic she can shut the fuck up about her racism sob stories. Lol insulted and spat on, that's the worse you got? You think this shit doesn't go both ways, and much, much more violently one way? Do I really need to specify which way that is?

[Overdriven]

Frankly Overdriven, if you had asked me 5 years ago I would've given you the expected and standard response. Today, particularly after listening to you pontificate on how this is merely karmic retribution for the sins of our ancestors, I can honestly say that as long as your wife isn't gunned down by an angry lunatic she can shut the fuck up about her racism sob stories. Lol insulted and spat on, that's the worse you got? You think this shit doesn't go both ways, and much, much more violently one way? Do I really need to specify which way that is?

If I had asked myself 6 years ago I would probably have sounded like you and it disgusts me to realise how much the media influenced my thinking as a teenager. But then I grew up and decided to critically look at things as opposed to jumping whatever bandwagon of hate is rolling around.

An eye for an eye is it? Totally ignoring those who want no part of it. Like I said by your reasoning you'd be happy bombing the Muslim world to hell for the acts of a few frankly insane organisations and individuals ignoring the fact that o wait...the West has been doing that for decades anyway.

Like I've said, I support no part of what has been done and committed in the name of Islam. I simply point out that is it any great surprise? Or are you really that simple?

[Grytviken]

Not the Mughals but colonial Britain certainly. The Indian Government typically blame the attacks on Pakistani militants. A country that was created out of nothing during the partition when the Indian sub-continent was effectively divided by religion and whole communities were forced to move to their appropriate country.

 I'm sure moderate Muslims everywhere are giving false reassurances to would be killers justifying their actions based on events that happened hundreds of years ago by casting the blame inadvertently . Murdering and executing hundreds of people in Mumbai in the name of Islam was surely the British Colonial governments fault because they didn't segregate them properly 100 years ago, totally justified.

[Overdriven]

I'm sure moderate Muslims everywhere are giving false reassurances to would be killers justifying their actions based on events that happened hundreds of years ago by casting the blame inadvertently . Murdering and executing hundreds of people in Mumbai in the name of Islam was surely the British Colonial governments fault because they didn't segregate them properly, totally justified.

You know the organisation that was blamed for the Mumbai attacks was funded by Osama Bin Laden, who guess what? Founded Al Qaeda, which guess what? Was born out of the organisations paid to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan by the West.

Understanding where these organisations got their boost to prominence simply reinforces how misguided the West was against the terrible threat of communism. Now these organisations have massive resources to preach their hate around the world and influence more and more to commit horrendous crimes in the name of their twisted vision of Islam. A vision that is clearly more about personal gain and some fucked up need for control than about any real religious belief. Religion simply gives the perfect method for controlling people to do as they wish as it always has done for centuries.

No one has a ready solution. I certainly don't. But I can be critical of all parties rather than just placing the blame on all those who happen to fall under the category of Muslim, no matter how varying their beliefs.

[Oberyn]

No, it's not a surprise. It's exactly what is expected when you let hundreds of thousands of people from a collective that feel completely entitled to their hatred of your collective. I'm not sure why anyone expects it to change, especially when their hatred is coddled and encouraged by our own society. Even now thousands of moronic bleeding hearts are taking to twitter to express their fear at the racist "backlash" against the poor innocent muslims, just like the horrible "backlash" from Charlie Hebdo that was decried before the bodies were even cooling, the one that, you know, never fucking happened. But the important thing is to show they are not giving up the dream in the face of icky reality. Gotta show those progressive bona fides. As with Charlie Hebdo, I predict a similar rash of bullshit apologia, similar to the crap you've spewed on this thread. Predictable underlying narrative: the ultimate villain is our society and nation which we must work harder to change, ingrained as it is with the terrible baggage of our uniquely evil past. i.e It's our fault, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, *flagellates*.

[Overdriven]

No, it's not a surprise. It's exactly what is expected when you let hundreds of thousands of people from a collective that feel completely entitled to their hatred of your collective. I'm not sure why anyone expects it to change, especially when their hatred is coddled and encouraged by our own society. Even now thousands of moronic bleeding hearts are taking to twitter to express their fear at the racist "backlash" against the poor innocent muslims, just like the horrible "backlash" from Charlie Hebdo that was decried before the bodies were even cooling, the one that, you know, never fucking happened. But the important thing is to show they are not giving up the dream in the face of icky reality. Gotta show those progressive bona fides. As with Charlie Hebdo, I predict a similar rash of bullshit apologia, similar to the crap you've spewed on this thread. Predictable underlying narrative: the ultimate villain is our society and nation which we must work harder to change, ingrained as it is with the terrible baggage of our uniquely evil past.

I hate liberal idiots who jump on such things as much as the next person. If Muslims are already being specifically targeted because they happen to share a religion with the attackers (yet to be confirmed anyway) then fair enough. But those who spring into action before any insults have even flown are just as bad. I lie somewhere in the middle. I hate the PC brigade but equally I hate those who tarnish others with the acts of a few.

I am apologising for nothing. But ignoring the political and social factors that lead up to acts such as these will inevitably just repeat the circle and in a few weeks/months/years we will be having the same argument. Sure I can agree with lax immigration being a problem. Within the EU more than anything it's the human rights bullshit that prevents us from extraditing known extremists to countries that are itching to try them and do whatever the hell they like to them. But simply arguing that we should chuck out all the Muslims, or stop immigration entirely is too simplistic and the kind of talk that led to the bloody holocaust.

[Grytviken]

You know the organisation that was blamed for the Mumbai attacks was funded by Osama Bin Laden, who guess what? Founded Al Qaeda, which guess what? Was born out of the organisations paid to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan by the West.

Understanding where these organisations got their boost to prominence simply reinforces how misguided the West was against the terrible threat of communism. Now these organisations have massive resources to preach their hate around the world and influence more and more to commit horrendous crimes in the name of their twisted vision of Islam. A vision that is clearly more about personal gain and some fucked up need for control than about any real religious belief.

  He was a multi-millionaire with many rich connections beforehand and was not the leader of the organization the US aided at the time which was not Al Qaeda.  The majority of them disbanded or continued fighting in the factional wars and infighting  that took place after the Soviets withdrew in Afghanistan. The infighting and civil war was still raging on when the US entered Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks.

 

 

[Clockworkkiller]

why do we allow mudslimes to roam free?

[Oberyn]

How would stopping immigration lead to a holocaust, exactly? Are the muslims currently in France going to evaporate if they cease to be fed by a stream of hundreds of thousands of their correligionists per year?