France under attack....

[Grytviken]

The "moderate" muslims wouldn't be considered "moderate" if it wasn't for the sizeable complement of useful idiot dhimmis constantly apologizing for all the blatant social and political transgressions in which muslims are disproportionately represented.
We didn't love muslims hard enough. We didn't clap hard enough when refugees got off the train. We didn't make our daughters give enough hugs and kisses to refugees. Why didn't we listen?

   The far lefties would have you believe that the real tragedy is that we "assumed it was Muslims" and overshadowed the real tragedy with blind hatred when the reality is these attacks only overshadow the steadily increasing micro-aggressions, thefts, assaults, rapes and lawless sharia neighborhoods growing in Europe, the kind of acts that are miserable enough to ruin someone's day or way of life but not important or politically convenient enough to make the news.
 
 The only countries I would feel safe travelling to in Europe is Poland and the Baltic states. In German news they made a disgusting article saying that the real culprit of the increased crime rate was the Slavic people, especially from Macedonia, Poland and Serbia, fuck those morons are turning into the same fascist idiots they are trying to avoid with their blind ignorance.

 

[Overdriven]

Overdriven it's one of the inherent contradictions I see in islam. Supposedly Mohammed forbade graven images of himself because he did not want to be worshipped as an idol. He kind of failed if that was his purpose, because there are so, so many ways Mohammed is worshipped as an idol by muslims, to the point, as you mention, that mere criticism of anything he may ever have done or thought is considered heresy. For most muslims he was clearly more than just a "morally excellent" man (a fucking bullshit, biased, facile interpretation in the first place, but you're a brainwashed cunt so I'll let it slide), and this isn't a somehow new interpretation. Seriously, you're barely a fucking muslim bro. You and people like you are non-existent in the grand scheme of things. You're the worst kind of Buffet-Muslim Basnak describes, because you choose to ignore 99% of what your religion truly entails for the vast majority of it's practitioners.

And is that a bad thing? On one hand you slate Islam as a religion and the people who practice it. But on the other you slate my outlook because it doesn't conform to the rest? And there are a lot of Muslims like me, particularly in Western countries and a large part of it is education and critical thinking. It's not only Western countries as well, I've had these discussions with Muslims in India too. There are more and more books on the subject and countless Islamic lecturers on youtube as well who are raising these points. Really from your aspect that should be a good thing because it's a change in thinking and one that I think is sorely needed as it counteracts all the bullshit that's taken hold around the religion.

Viewing him as more than a morally excellent man is brainwashing in itself. More Muslims need to learn about their beliefs. There are too many I've spoken to who have never read the Quran but simply are just doing as they have been taught to do and they've never thought to question it. But when you sit down, open it up and go through it step by step. You come across things that are questionable and you discuss them then you understand the message far more than those who simply obey their Imam.

It's the same reason Muslim women in the West aren't covering their heads (something that wasn't even required in the middle-east until the rise of the Wahabbis) as much any more among a whole list of other things. Because once you delve into and critically examine the Quran you can see, hold on, it doesn't actually say do any of these things.

[LordBerenger]

That old fart is a moron overall (not saying that Islam isn't a derpy religion though). I thought we wouldn't see more of those vids here when Wayyyne got banned from the forums.

[pepejul]

Killing innocent pple in the name of Republic, Freedom, Justice or Nation doesn't make Republic, Freedom, Justice and Nation bad things.

Just same for islam : it is just a stupid religion (like other stupid religions) and crazy pple use it to justify their crimes.

Stupidity, primary primitive thinking and blind hate is the ennemy.

[Xant]

That old fart is a moron overall (not saying that Islam isn't a derpy religion though). I thought we wouldn't see more of those vids here when Wayyyne got banned from the forums.

Who cares what he's like "overall"?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/619447/Paris-terrorist-Syrian-refugee-Greece-government-official

[Oberyn]

I'd love it if Islam underwent a generalized reformation and the gates of ijtihad were reopened. I don't have any illusions though, and given what's been happening since the end of the Cold War I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Islam is heading in the right direction. It's more like the exact opposite. The interconnectedness of the world has been a boon to the fanatics organizing in vast international organizations. Islam is becoming more violent and reactionary, overtaking even supposedly "secular" nations like Turkey. There's a literal cold war between two theocratic sides ruling over the heartlands of the old Islamic empire, each calling on God and religion has their ultimate source of authority, over regional control of the middle east, and you talk of fucking youtube philosophers.
In any case, none of that is Europe's fucking problem. I don't want to sacrifice my culture and country in the service of some demented, delusional dream of a "westernized" Islam. Who decided that our countries would be the catalyst, exactly? Why MUST we continue to accept these people who so blatantly hate us in the hope that, over time, with exposure, maybe they'll finally love us, like we're a fucking retarded battered housewife making excuses for her husband beating the shit out of her? They want to reform their shit religion, they're welcome to do so, in their own countries and historical lands.

[Overdriven]

I'd love it if Islam underwent a generalized reformation and the gates of ijtihad were reopened. I don't have any illusions though, and given what's been happening since the end of the Cold War I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Islam is heading in the right direction. It's more like the exact opposite. The interconnectedness of the world has been a boon to the fanatics organizing in vast international organizations. Islam is becoming more violent and reactionary, overtaking even supposedly "secular" nations like Turkey. There's a literal cold war between two theocratic sides ruling over the heartlands of the old Islamic empire, each calling on God and religion has their ultimate source of authority, over regional control of the middle east, and you talk of fucking youtube philosophers.
In any case, none of that is Europe's fucking problem. I don't want to sacrifice my culture and country in the service of some demented, delusional dream of a "westernized" Islam. Who decided that our countries would be the catalyst, exactly? Why MUST we continue to accept these people who so blatantly hate us in the hope that, over time, with exposure, maybe they'll finally love us, like we're a fucking retarded battered housewife making excuses for her husband beating the shit out of her?

I don't think it is heading in the right direction. Particularly in the Middle East the situation is clearly getting worse and worse and religious extremists are just consolidating their control over the masses.

But if even some change their views and see their religion more critically then that's something. There's no magically fix it button and wishing Islam away isn't going to help.

No one decided our countries would be a catalyst. It's simply a bi-product of globalisation. Something our countries have spurred on. The world is going to get more and more connected and that includes the movement of populations between countries. Unless you put a country on lock down that's always going to be the situation. Whether it's flood of Syrian refugees like it is now, or a slow trickle over time. It's going to happen and expecting anything else is a pipe dream.

It's not even like it doesn't work both ways. There are tons of British people living and working in Islamic countries. Particularly the gulf states. The situation is exacerbated at the moment because of the refugee situation so the migration coming the other way has hit a point of high pressure.

[Oberyn]

On "lock down", you mean the same immigration policies followed by the vast majority of the rest of the world? Literally every non-western country? Yes, it would be unthinkable to have a rational immigration policy, it's a fait accompli that we are powerless to stop hordes of poor vagrants from just crossing our borders. It's literally impossible to stop them! In fact, it would be downright rude and inhospitable. You wouldn't want the world to think you're racist or something.

[Overdriven]

On "lock down", you mean the same immigration policies followed by the vast majority of the rest of the world? Literally every non-western country? Yes, it would be unthinkable to have a rational immigration policy, it's a fait accompli that we are powerless to stop hordes of poor vagrants for just crossing our borders.

I just edited my post to add a bit to that. There are Westerners working in every other country all over the world. No non-western country is on lock down.

[Grytviken]

And is that a bad thing? On one hand you slate Islam as a religion and the people who practice it. But on the other you slate my outlook because it doesn't conform to the rest? And there are a lot of Muslims like me, particularly in Western countries and a large part of it is education and critical thinking. It's not only Western countries as well, I've had these discussions with Muslims in India too. There are more and more books on the subject and countless Islamic lecturers on youtube as well who are raising these points. Really from your aspect that should be a good thing because it's a change in thinking and one that I think is sorely needed as it counteracts all the bullshit that's taken hold around the religion.

Viewing him as more than a morally excellent man is brainwashing in itself. More Muslims need to learn about their beliefs. There are too many I've spoken to who have never read the Quran but simply are just doing as they have been taught to do and they've never thought to question it. But when you sit down, open it up and go through it step by step. You come across things that are questionable and you discuss them then you understand the message far more than those who simply obey their Imam.

It's the same reason Muslim women in the West aren't covering their heads (something that wasn't even required in the middle-east until the rise of the Wahabbis) as much any more among a whole list of other things. Because once you delve into and critically examine the Quran you can see, hold on, it doesn't actually say do any of these things.

 With such an easily manipulated religion Islam should be regulated and treated like guns, drugs, prostitution or any other problem that is out of control that needs state or government intervention and attention. In Muslim majority countries the state has to regulate the religion because it is too dangerous not to. European governments need to do the same or it is nothing more than an open membership club to preach and manipulate the ideology and twist facts anyway they want to recruit would be terrorists and murderers.

 The separation of religion and state is not a right to be abused, and when it is action should be taken. There is no separation of state and religion in the majority of Muslim countries for a reason, it's too dangerous not to be regulated.

[Xant]

I just edited my post to add a bit to that. There are Westerners working in every other country all over the world. No non-western country is on lock down.

Oh yes, westerners causing so much trouble overseas...

[Overdriven]

With such an easily manipulated religion Islam should be regulated and treated like guns, drugs, prostitution or any other problem that is out of control that needs state or government intervention and attention. In Muslim majority countries the state has to regulate the religion because it is too dangerous not to. European governments need to do the same or it is nothing more than an open membership club to preach and manipulate the ideology and twist facts anyway they want to recruit would be terrorists and murderers.

Other way around. The regulation of Islam in Islamic countries is precisely the problem. People aren't allowed to question it because the state enforces what their vision of Islam is.

Oh yes, westerners causing so much trouble overseas...

Nice bait attempt but that wasn't the point at all so good luck with that.

[Oberyn]

I just edited my post to add a bit to that. There are Westerners working in every other country all over the world. No non-western country is on lock down.

Welp, there's our answer then, we just need to treat muslim immigrants to our countries the same way we are treated in muslim countries. I'm sure it's just so onerous for poor Qatar to be subjected to these hordes of poor british expat chavs settling in their countries and magically obtaining citizenship and government benefits, they totally feel our pain, exactly the same situation after all.
Expats aren't treated as second class citizens in law or in practice, subject to whatever xenophobic bullshit any actual citizen feels like perpetrating. And those indonesian/malay/bangladeshi slaves they important by the thousands and treat like literal cattle, exactly the same situation as in the west. What a salient and appropriate comparison Overdriven, I feel priviledged having been exposed to it.

[Grytviken]

Other way around. The regulation of Islam in Islamic countries is precisely the problem. People aren't allowed to question is because the state enforces what their vision of Islam is.

Nice bait attempt but that wasn't the point at all so good luck with that.

 So if Catholics murdered 1000's of people a year in western countries like Muslims do the Vatican would cease to exist, when Muslims commit terrorist attacks inspired by these preachers we should just speak to the wind because of a flaw in the organization of the religion itself that allows it to be easily exploited for violence?

 I'ts not a bait it's a serious concern, all these terrorist attacks have a Muslim preacher behind them, not a Catholic priest or a Buddhist monk...

[Overdriven]

Welp, there's our answer then, we just need to treat muslim immigrants to our countries the same way we are treated in muslim countries. I'm sure it's just so onerous for poor Qatar to be subjected to these hordes of poor british expat chavs settling in their countries and magically obtaining citizenship and government benefits, they totally feel our pain, exactly the same situation after all.

Heck I don't support benefits for immigrants or anything like that. I'm anti-EU because of all the immigration bullshit and lack of control over our own borders and the fact we can't extradite extremists without years of court battles. But I don't hate on those who take advantage because I would if I were them. The problem is my Government and the EU so I direct it at them.

Equally though I'm not delusional. Some immigration is a fact of life and people will come and go from this country and all others in the ridiculously connected world we now live in.

Expats aren't treated as second class citizens in law or in practice, subject to whatever xenophobic bullshit any actual citizen feels like perpetrating. And those indonesian/malay/bangladeshi slaves they important by the thousands and treat like literal cattle, exactly the same situation as in the west. What a salient and appropriate comparison Overdriven, I feel priviledged having been exposed to it.

Missed the point though. The argument was immigration goes both ways and it was counter argument to your suggestion that other non-western nations were on lock down. They aren't even remotely.