Throwing Lances

[Sandersson Jankins]

Agreed, but if you get the drop on them and manage to attack them, they can then switch to their broken melee and swing so fast you have no time to block at all, then they spam you down because you literally cannot defend yourself from the constant attacks.

Aw hell, that ain't true.

I'm a 33-15 character with 0 IF, maxed PS, WM, ATH and 2 shield. VERY rarely use a shield, though.

I'd be surprised if you're slower than my ass, always running around in transitional plate and stuff. I've got absolutely no problem even with high-agility throwing lance builds in melee.

While nihilistic tendencies compel me to tell you that you're wrong that you "literally cannot defend yourself against melee throwing lances", I'll agree with you. Especially since I don't play with you and I've no idea of your skill level. Let's assume that you "literally cannot defend yourself against melee throwing lances".

That same statement doesn't hold true for me, and there are loads of players with better technique than I.

If you're more strength-based than myself, you should absolutely not find yourself in a 1v1 situation against a throwing lancer unless your team has died.

[Yeldur]

Aw hell, that ain't true.

I'm a 33-15 character with 0 IF, maxed PS, WM, ATH and 2 shield. VERY rarely use a shield, though.

I'd be surprised if you're slower than my ass, always running around in transitional plate and stuff. I've got absolutely no problem even with high-agility throwing lance builds in melee.

While nihilistic tendencies compel me to tell you that you're wrong that you "literally cannot defend yourself against melee throwing lances", I'll agree with you. Especially since I don't play with you and I've no idea of your skill level. Let's assume that you "literally cannot defend yourself against melee throwing lances".

That same statement doesn't hold true for me, and there are loads of players with better technique than I.

If you're more strength-based than myself, you should absolutely not find yourself in a 1v1 situation against a throwing lancer unless your team has died.

I'm not that great on the defence side of things, I'm better at attacking than anything.

I just hate being in the situation where if I see a thrower I HAVE to run with no other option but that.

I'm far from the best player, I just think they need a nerf because they have no downsides at all to their playstyle, not one, at least not one I can think of.

[Gravoth_iii]

I'm not that great on the defence side of things, I'm better at attacking than anything.

I just hate being in the situation where if I see a thrower I HAVE to run with no other option but that.

I'm far from the best player, I just think they need a nerf because they have no downsides at all to their playstyle, not one, at least not one I can think of.

Pretty limited ammo, not amazing damage, light armor no IF, no shield. They have some athletics etc, but nothing incredible.

[Yeldur]

Pretty limited ammo, not amazing damage, light armor no IF, no shield. They have some athletics etc, but nothing incredible.

You trade ammo for massive damage
Damage is high, not sure what you're on about lol.
Don't have to wear light armour on the account that you have 18 STR for a reason, and you can easily have even more if you want.
Don't need a shield, 2h doesn't have a shield, neither does polearms, sometimes even 1h don't use polearms, not necessary in the slightest.

You seem heavily bias to the side that says "These guys are so weak it's stupid", have you ever played as them before? I can tell you they're way beyond strong lol.
Hit someone in the head with one of those things and they die so quick it's stupid, even if they do survive they've lost about 85% of their health bar.

[Gravoth_iii]

You trade ammo for massive damage
Damage is high, not sure what you're on about lol.
Don't have to wear light armour on the account that you have 18 STR for a reason, and you can easily have even more if you want.
Don't need a shield, 2h doesn't have a shield, neither does polearms, sometimes even 1h don't use polearms, not necessary in the slightest.

You seem heavily bias to the side that says "These guys are so weak it's stupid", have you ever played as them before? I can tell you they're way beyond strong lol.
Hit someone in the head with one of those things and they die so quick it's stupid, even if they do survive they've lost about 85% of their health bar.

I did play quite a bit of lance throwing, i was probably the first one to pick them up when they went 3 for 2 slots, and ive played with them quite a bit since every nerf theyve gotten. The damage is in no way massive, when i used them i was happy if someone in medium armor would die by 2 of them, hell even peasants would at times survive 1. With current lance damage the way to top perform is through finishing enemies off with lances, never killing them purely from throwing, then you will be wasting all your ammo on 2 kills. Heavy armored targets are just a no-go, unless wounded previously. You can switch to melee after hitting someone to finish them off, but thats a risk considering you are using light armor and a short weapon.

Yes you use light armor, heavy armor not only ruins your accuracy, but also removes your key strength, mobility. You have no hp to make efficient use of the armor either so at most you will tank 1 more hit, if even that.

Headshots are great but you cant rely on headshotting people, lances are accurate sure but its still tricky.

I dont have any bias, i am being realistic while lots of people QQ for the sake of devs fixing a problem they could easily adapt to. Positioning and awareness is key to surviving ranged (allthough ranged is almost not even a factor anymore, so many nerfs). Im not saying they are stupidly weak, im saying that they are fine. Very unreliable, at times they will be destroying, other times they will be doing jack shit. Best way to play lance thrower (that benefits your team the most) is killing cav, you get a bunch of score, not really any kills, and you can win your team rounds like this. Thing is, cav can play around it if they chose to.

Played earlier on my ultra glasscannon agihero main, died multiple times to infantry by 1 hit, never died to lances 1 hit (out of the two times i got hit). On my str 2h hero ill barely care if i get hit by a lance, at best they will do 1/3 and thats not very impressive. Hp is a resource, if im full on hp i will take way more risks in order for my team to gain an advantage, if im low i will play much more defensive, which might benefit my team less. Headshot instagibs happen, but not nearly often enough for me to be bothered with them.

[Yeldur]

You made some good points, but have you considered the fact that you're not meant to be running around completely alone and trying to fight people like that? You should support your team by going with them and then throwing shit at the enemies before your team fully arrives for an assault, by that you negate any chance of teamhitting with your lance and you also can get off some serious damage before your team jump in to finish them off.

Again. I'm talking in terms of the MELEE. NOT the Throwing.
The throwing from my experience is strong and does a fuck ton of damage, you apparently have a different experience, so for that we'll just agree to disagree.

However, the melee IS too powerful. Now maybe I'm the only one on the planet who has this problem, but the attack speed on the throwing lance is ridiculous, I cannot defend myself due to how fast it swings, stabs and hits in general, not to mention the melee does significant damage, you're really not risking anything by going into melee combat, you just need to know how to block attacks and voila, you're instantly ready to spam a person down with 50 attacks before they can even realise that you even attacked them. Sure, they might get a swing in every now and then but then you press the right mouse button and block that, then you continue to spam them with your insane attack speed.

I disagree with you that ranged isn't that strong, archers with a bit of STR can hit you and take half your HP bar away and xbows can 1 shot you by hitting you in the head with MW equipment.
Idk what nerfs ranged have had but I can tell you that they clearly are not doing much because I've taken a hit from an arrow in full +3 Milanese and my health bar dropped fast.
Build was 24/20 and I had about 7, 8 or 9 IF to go along with it (Can't remember too clearly whether it was either due to the fact I don't play that build atm)

[POOPHAMMER]

I think the real issue here is rocks need to be buffed to at least 70+ blunt damage

[Sandersson Jankins]

You made some good points, but have you considered the fact that you're not meant to be running around completely alone and trying to fight people like that? You should support your team by going with them and then throwing shit at the enemies before your team fully arrives for an assault, by that you negate any chance of teamhitting with your lance and you also can get off some serious damage before your team jump in to finish them off.

Again. I'm talking in terms of the MELEE. NOT the Throwing.
The throwing from my experience is strong and does a fuck ton of damage, you apparently have a different experience, so for that we'll just agree to disagree.

However, the melee IS too powerful. Now maybe I'm the only one on the planet who has this problem, but the attack speed on the throwing lance is ridiculous, I cannot defend myself due to how fast it swings, stabs and hits in general, not to mention the melee does significant damage, you're really not risking anything by going into melee combat, you just need to know how to block attacks and voila, you're instantly ready to spam a person down with 50 attacks before they can even realise that you even attacked them. Sure, they might get a swing in every now and then but then you press the right mouse button and block that, then you continue to spam them with your insane attack speed.

I disagree with you that ranged isn't that strong, archers with a bit of STR can hit you and take half your HP bar away and xbows can 1 shot you by hitting you in the head with MW equipment.
Idk what nerfs ranged have had but I can tell you that they clearly are not doing much because I've taken a hit from an arrow in full +3 Milanese and my health bar dropped fast.
Build was 24/20 and I had about 7, 8 or 9 IF to go along with it (Can't remember too clearly whether it was either due to the fact I don't play that build atm)

I see some enemy players have the same difficulty as you when I use a +3 Spear and do really whacky shit. Short polearms are abusable as all shit if you're experienced at it. Just like nearly everything in the game.

I'm not that great on the defence side of things, I'm better at attacking than anything.

I just hate being in the situation where if I see a thrower I HAVE to run with no other option but that.

I'm far from the best player, I just think they need a nerf because they have no downsides at all to their playstyle, not one, at least not one I can think of.

You've already said that you're far poorer at defense than attack, meaning I assume you have trouble with blocking. It's all good; everyone's got weak spots. Mine is wandering off alone without my team or leading 2-3 friends into certain death.

But a low-damage, very quick weapon performing very well against a player who has significant difficulty blocking properly isn't surprising at all. Just focus on improving any areas in which you lack proficiency. The ONLY thing I could agree with changing/nerfing is somehow tweaking the animation where you switch between throwing and melee. That shit can lead to some pretty goddamn nutty things. Of course, I also do this with my polearms that have an alt-mode for a risky but unconventional feint. So I'm a real dick.

[mcdeath]

(click to show/hide)

I see some enemy players have the same difficulty as you when I use a +3 Spear and do really whacky shit. Short polearms are abusable as all shit if you're experienced at it. Just like nearly everything in the game.

You've already said that you're far poorer at defense than attack, meaning I assume you have trouble with blocking. It's all good; everyone's got weak spots. Mine is wandering off alone without my team or leading 2-3 friends into certain death.

But a low-damage, very quick weapon performing very well against a player who has significant difficulty blocking properly isn't surprising at all. Just focus on improving any areas in which you lack proficiency. The ONLY thing I could agree with changing/nerfing is somehow tweaking the animation where you switch between throwing and melee. That shit can lead to some pretty goddamn nutty things. Of course, I also do this with my polearms that have an alt-mode for a risky but unconventional feint. So I'm a real dick.

I remember my first gay sexual encounter.

[Yeldur]

I see some enemy players have the same difficulty as you when I use a +3 Spear and do really whacky shit. Short polearms are abusable as all shit if you're experienced at it. Just like nearly everything in the game.

You've already said that you're far poorer at defense than attack, meaning I assume you have trouble with blocking. It's all good; everyone's got weak spots. Mine is wandering off alone without my team or leading 2-3 friends into certain death.

But a low-damage, very quick weapon performing very well against a player who has significant difficulty blocking properly isn't surprising at all. Just focus on improving any areas in which you lack proficiency. The ONLY thing I could agree with changing/nerfing is somehow tweaking the animation where you switch between throwing and melee. That shit can lead to some pretty goddamn nutty things. Of course, I also do this with my polearms that have an alt-mode for a risky but unconventional feint. So I'm a real dick.

I don't mean that I'm awful at blocking, I can block perfectly fine, when things are super fast though, that's where the difficulty comes in, really fast feints plus a string combo of attacks that I cannot keep up with hurts a fuck ton, they can get 3-4 attacks in before I can even react. I just think the attack speed is far too fast, I mean it is a lance, they're supposed to be heavy, thus slow.
I can't tell what the attack speed is as that information isn't anywhere I can find it, however I do think it needs a nerf, and I've found a lot of people complaining about the same thing as well.

[Sandersson Jankins]

(click to show/hide)

I remember my first gay sexual encounter.

Really? Must have been special.

I can't remember mine at all, I've had so damn many.

[Gravoth_iii]

I don't mean that I'm awful at blocking, I can block perfectly fine, when things are super fast though, that's where the difficulty comes in, really fast feints plus a string combo of attacks that I cannot keep up with hurts a fuck ton, they can get 3-4 attacks in before I can even react. I just think the attack speed is far too fast, I mean it is a lance, they're supposed to be heavy, thus slow.
I can't tell what the attack speed is as that information isn't anywhere I can find it, however I do think it needs a nerf, and I've found a lot of people complaining about the same thing as well.

Have you tried playing a throwing lancer? If you are somewhere above average as melee player, see if you will outperform you average melee session, but as a thrower. Kills, score, wins etc. It may vary from player to player, but the only person ive seen truly impact the game as a thrower is zero_sat (i think it was him). Im an all around decent thrower, i have my rounds/maps but in general i will feel slightly useless compared to what i could do as infantry. And if thats the case then i really cant say something is op.

Some people may disagree, but i generally go by my own experience first, and then by how often x weapon/build is topping scoreboards to see how much of an impact it has. Especially if that persons team wins a lot. Score just seems to say a lot.

[Yeldur]

Have you tried playing a throwing lancer? If you are somewhere above average as melee player, see if you will outperform you average melee session, but as a thrower. Kills, score, wins etc. It may vary from player to player, but the only person ive seen truly impact the game as a thrower is zero_sat (i think it was him). Im an all around decent thrower, i have my rounds/maps but in general i will feel slightly useless compared to what i could do as infantry. And if thats the case then i really cant say something is op.

Some people may disagree, but i generally go by my own experience first, and then by how often x weapon/build is topping scoreboards to see how much of an impact it has. Especially if that persons team wins a lot. Score just seems to say a lot.

That's fine man, you can go by your experience all you like, I'm doing exactly the same :p

From my experience, thrower is incredibly easy, it only took me like 10 minutes of playing it to get used to it and from then on it was easy as hell, hit a person with a lance or two then engage in combat with em, then once they're dead, pick up the lances you missed, that's how I played it and it got me a decent K/D 75% of the time.

Zero_SaT is special, to tell you the truth I don't know why he's playing thrower, he's much better off as a melee fighter, I've not managed to beat him in combat once, but maybe that's just down to the stupid attack speed of the lance.

Every game you play will at least partially be decided by the map, there are maps for cav, maps for ranged, maps for infantry. All of them get their advantages, so it's not like you're going to do well 100% of the time, but I've found with most maps, so long as you have space to work with, nobody is going to kill you unless you're being 2/3v1'd.

[Gravoth_iii]

That's fine man, you can go by your experience all you like, I'm doing exactly the same :p

From my experience, thrower is incredibly easy, it only took me like 10 minutes of playing it to get used to it and from then on it was easy as hell, hit a person with a lance or two then engage in combat with em, then once they're dead, pick up the lances you missed, that's how I played it and it got me a decent K/D 75% of the time.

Zero_SaT is special, to tell you the truth I don't know why he's playing thrower, he's much better off as a melee fighter, I've not managed to beat him in combat once, but maybe that's just down to the stupid attack speed of the lance.

Every game you play will at least partially be decided by the map, there are maps for cav, maps for ranged, maps for infantry. All of them get their advantages, so it's not like you're going to do well 100% of the time, but I've found with most maps, so long as you have space to work with, nobody is going to kill you unless you're being 2/3v1'd.

I dont mind if something is easy, that shouldnt be a base to nerf something on. Decent k/d doesnt sound too bad, and only 75% of the time. Cant say anything here makes it sound nerf worhty.

If any nerf should be made, it should be an indirect one, buff shields massively, so much as halving the weights, giving a good boost to the forcefield and possibly making the low tier shields a bit more sturdy. I think 1h is great, but i feel as if the weights of shields is a bit too much tbh, i atleast, wouldnt mind 1h being buffed. Also all of this to further appeal to 2h heroes who cry about ranged, i generally have 2 shield skill on my 2h characters just for the option to bring a decent one, but i always felt as if they weight is a real pain.

[Gurnisson]

Zero_SaT is special, to tell you the truth I don't know why he's playing thrower, he's much better off as a melee fighter, I've not managed to beat him in combat once, but maybe that's just down to the stupid attack speed of the lance.

Scrub