Author Topic: Context is Key  (Read 7351 times)

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Offline Shemaforash

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2015, 12:37:56 am »
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I was assuming you were an atheist and you used that response.
You should be punished for having a shitty attitude.

Offline Shemaforash

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2015, 01:30:59 am »
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idk i read it but i didn't care enough to make a legit response, just like religion. I don't care, i don't even know why i'm posting when i'm already convinced that religion is for people who need guidance, whether they're stupid or something else is going on in their life is completely irrelevant. people who without a doubt believe in god aren't completely sane.
You should be punished for having a shitty attitude.

Offline Xant

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2015, 01:49:22 am »
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"And you're missing a rather important point about my lack of religious convictions as well. To be a believer, you have to not only believe, you also have to want someone big and patriarchal around to take care of business for you. You have to be apt for worship. And thirteens don't do worship, of anyone or anything. Even if you could convince a variant thirteen, against all the evidence, that there really was a God? He'd just see him as a threat to be eliminated. If God were demonstrably real? Guys like me would just be looking for ways to find him and burn him down."
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2015, 02:13:57 am »
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Since we're so into categorization atm, i have a genuine question that i'm sure someone will know the answer to (possibly even several troll answers if i'm lucky).

How would you categorise it if someone is open to the possibility that there may or may not be a God, but that it doesn't really matter one way or the other since the existence of a God would not logically mean that any single religion is correct. And that a need to 'love', worship or even acknowledge said God would not logically follow, even in the scenario of there being a master creator.

Not 'they cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God', but 'it doesnt make a difference one way or the other'. Or is that still under the umbrella of agnosticism?
This someone does not believe in any god, spiritual being, or whatever, thus he is an atheist. This person is not an agnostic as he does not claim that the truth about the matter is unknown or perhaps unknowable.

Offline Jeade

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2015, 05:49:35 am »
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Since we're so into categorization atm, i have a genuine question that i'm sure someone will know the answer to (possibly even several troll answers if i'm lucky).

How would you categorise it if someone is open to the possibility that there may or may not be a God, but that it doesn't really matter one way or the other since the existence of a God would not logically mean that any single religion is correct. And that a need to 'love', worship or even acknowledge said God would not logically follow, even in the scenario of there being a master creator.

Not 'they cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God', but 'it doesnt make a difference one way or the other'. Or is that still under the umbrella of agnosticism?

Agnosticism is, plainly, a "lack of knowing."
Gnosticism is "knowing."
You didn't specify whether or not the person in your hypothetical believes or does not believe in a god, so I wouldn't go either way with atheism or theism.
"Spiritual" might be my best guess.

I'd also like to mention that atheism and theism are both held beliefs.
If you just flat out don't care, that doesn't make you one or the other.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2015, 10:08:56 am »
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If you just flat out don't care, that doesn't make you one or the other.
Yes, it does, you are an atheist. If you do not care about football, you are a non-football fan, not something in-between a non-football fan and a football fan. It doesn't matter on what basis, you lack the belief in a god, thus you are an atheist. I don't see how people can put something in-between being something, and being not something. Everyone is a carpenter or not a carpenter.

Offline Xant

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2015, 10:49:01 am »
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Yes, it does, you are an atheist. If you do not care about football, you are a non-football fan, not something in-between a non-football fan and a football fan. It doesn't matter on what basis, you lack the belief in a god, thus you are an atheist. I don't see how people can put something in-between being something, and being not something. Everyone is a carpenter or not a carpenter.
It's more like claiming that everyone who doesn't believe pink butterflies eat dogs at 5 AM in the night also believes a religion about pink butterflies eating dogs at 5 AM, because they don't believe it. That both belief and non-belief are equally religion.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2015, 11:58:35 am »
+2
Mmm, see I could argue this either way, which is why I asked for opinions.

Since 'creator' and 'patriarch' are two totally different things, how about being fairly certain that there is no 'creator' but even if there is it doesn't matter since this does not in and of itself necessitate acts of worship or acknowledgment of a higher power. The sun comes up every morning whether you believe in it or not, if the universe exists due to some 'creator' then it's already been built and you can reap the benefits regardless of how you believe it came to be made.

This view works on the assumption that there is no benevolent patriarch or afterlife

A lot of people couldn't care less about esoteric questions on the nature and existence of God. It's not the existence or non-existence of God that forces worship, it's the political castes/classes that feed off the ritualized bureaucracies that inevitably grow around any successful religion, for power and influence and money, as has happened for tens of thousands of years for a vast variety of different religions across the planet. Once the power is entrenched deep the rest is just inertia.   
A personalized and individual relationship with "God" is a product of the renaissance, the reformation, the enlightenment, the industrial revolution (at least in Europe). For most of the world religion is still an important collective tribal marker. Religious belief isn't an irrelevant, superfluous detail just because you live in a society where it was made that way through hundreds of years of social and political development.
Frankly it's ethnocentric arrogance to look at these competing systems and flipantly dismiss them as just relics of a fading past, that can obviously not affect our "superior" modern social constructs in any way. Just look at it in a historical context, it's not a random coincidence that these political systems (yes, political, as organized religions gather power that is inevitably where it leads, for those that don't start inextricably linked with political power in the first place) have been so sucessful and have emerged independently wherever any human collective existed throughout recorded history. It's obvious that they provide an evolutionary advantage to collectives. In fact you'd have to be pretty fucking retarded, or wilfully blind and ignorant to the reality of the world to pretend religious belief is merely a benign and unimportant detail with no ulterior consequences beyond a simple personal opinion. Secular governments are fighting an uphill battle against human nature, against tens, hundreds of thousands of years of inertia. Could be just a flash in the pan in historical terms, compared to the ancient monoliths of organized religion, yet so many seem so convinced that this is now the new normal and there is just no possible way it will ever backtrack or be threatened by "primitive" competitors. 

edit for spelling
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:20:20 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Xant

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2015, 12:22:34 pm »
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Organized religions being present in every human collective doesn't mean they are, or were, an evolutionary advantage. All it means is that the capacity for religion is an evolutionary advantage.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2015, 12:34:19 pm »
+1
Organized religions being present in every human collective doesn't mean they are, or were, an evolutionary advantage. All it means is that the capacity for religion is an evolutionary advantage.

Willingness to kill and die and sacrifice for something greater than yourself, the assurance of an afterlife as a reward for these sacrifices, the centralization of collective power beyond mere blood and tribal links, social hierarchies butressed by apparent divine approval, to the point that the head(s) of these hierarchical pyramids were often embued with characteristics of a God if not considered God outright or at least gatekeepers to it, the "othering" of any outside to this collective, rituals reinforcing this division, etc, etc. You don't see some of these features as perhaps providing an advantage to collectives vs those that did not have these traits? Maybe organized religions are all encompassing because for the vast majority of human existence collectives not holding these sorts of beliefs inevitably got absorbed, driven off or destroyed by those that did?
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Offline Xant

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2015, 12:48:59 pm »
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Maybe organized religions are all encompassing because for the vast majority of human existence collectives not holding these sorts of beliefs inevitably got absorbed, driven off or destroyed by those that did?
Yes... or maybe not?
Meaning lies as much
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Offline ecorcheur_brokar

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2015, 01:12:45 pm »
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Organized religions being present in every human collective doesn't mean they are, or were, an evolutionary advantage. All it means is that the capacity for religion is an evolutionary advantage.
Or maybe religion is a parasite that has evolutionary advantage only to itself? Societies without religion may have existed and maybe they still exist, they just got also "parasited".

But yeah, Obeyrn made the right point, the laicity in our socities is not something that is due to us and definitiv. The laicity allowed us to make great social progress and there's a need to stay vigilant to keep it this way. Maybe in the UK, it is not the case, but you can see that most of catholic countries still have to fight for avortement, gay marriage, etc.
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Offline Shemaforash

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2015, 03:44:37 pm »
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heskey ur so edgy
You should be punished for having a shitty attitude.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2015, 03:50:15 pm »
+1
If organized religions were a "parasitical" meme, whatever that means, then "atheistic" societies would be the norm. As it is, the nature of the world means that a group of people fanatically convinced of their revealed "truths", no matter how patently retarded they are, will be more succesful at replicating itself than a group that is constantly second guessing itself and paralyzed by apathy, even if their "truths" are actually, well, true. It could well be that being a gullible idiot is actually a survival mechanism, perhaps not on the individual level, but on a collective one.
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Offline cup457

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Re: Context is Key
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2015, 04:13:35 pm »
+1
I have met many people in america to whom religion is literally no part of their lives and they never bother me. I have also met many people who deeply believe in a god (among the various sects of christianity) and they act the same as everyone else who believes or not. I have also met huge assholes who take every second to shove their beliefs, whether its religion or athiesm' down my throat. And to be honest i have met many more rabid athiests than I have religious nuts (although i have met a few). I was raised a catholic and a believed for a long time. Now am i not sure either way, but I almost want a god to have a reason for all of this beyond a human reason. Of course it is different in america but i personally dislike a strong organized religion. It breeds opulence and degeneracy which is the opposite of what most religions want. I believe that it should be done to better yourself not social advantages or whatever.
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