Context is Key

[Vibe]

Go google me what kind of scientific advancements came from religion as a concerted effort of church as a whole, and not some poor scientist that was forced to be there out of fear else he'd be baked on the stake or cast out of the village, 'internet-intellectual'. Now compare this to the harm caused by the church.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I like how in the 21st century we disregard the scientific discoveries and advancements and acts of intellectual preservation that came directly out of monasteries because they aren't relevant *now*. But give an internet-intellectual an opportunity to dwell in the past about the shitty period in western history where religion and science found themselves at odds for some reason and all of a sudden the historic interaction of religion/science is current and relevant and super-important! (But *not* any of the occasions where scientific advancement came from monasteries, it's only relevant now if that interaction was negative, cos fedora).

I don't think we disregard advancements that came directly form monasteries (at least not in science). Mendel for exemple vibe (well not a concerted effort by the church, but I remember some muslim scientisct that have done things to find where the Mecca is placed everywhere in the world, and yeah that must be the only exemple...).

But I don't think religion was the cause of those advecement, monasteries were just the only place where you could find people that were litterate. It's like when people say "look what muslim have bring like mathematics, etc", I don't see the relevance or the link between the religion and the research. It was just people who happened to be religious (like everybody else in their age) that were also curious and discovered things. And even when religion and science were interacting positively together, religion was still limitating science in the possibility and hypothesis.

On the other side, when the interaction is negativ there's a direct link, it's often even written in the trial (done by religious people), this findings are against religions, you must retract and your findings must be destroyed. So clearly in those case, the interaction is relevant.

[Vibe]

But I don't think religion was the cause of those advecement, monasteries were just the only place where you could find people that were litterate.

That was my point

[WITCHCRAFT]

Go google me what kind of scientific advancements came from religion atheism as a concerted effort, and not some poor agnostic scientist that was forced to be there out of fear else he'd be baked on the stake or cast out of the village ridiculed for holding religious beliefs in the year of our lord 2015, 'internet-intellectual'. Now compare this to the harm caused by the church.

But as a serious rebuttal, a lot of scientists both Christian and Islamic through many centuries have done research and praised a higher power for letting them exist, something something so that they may know such beauty in the truth of our Natural World, something blah blah.

Heskey might troll a lot but that is a valid point.

But I don't think religion was the cause of those advecement, monasteries were just the only place where you could find people that were litterate.

Yeah no biggie just holding the frail candle of knowledge as it burns alone in a vast sea of ignorance for several hundred years. Now that everyone's literate we can just bulldoze churches/mosques because they are no longer relevant.

[Vibe]

Is the word 'Monk' really that difficult to type? Or would it offend your concept of the universe to imagine someone wearing an itchy habit, waking up at a ludicrous hour for morning prayers every day and still theorise about the physical state on the universe in a scientific way?

Why would it offend me that scientists of the past / monks were mostly religious. Pretty much everyone was, due to lack of knowledge or due to it being forced upon. What kind of point are you even trying to make here lol.

I'll leave the googling to you if that's the only source you can imagine.

Well, you're the one that came up with 'internet-intellectual', so you must know all about it.

If you're so obsessed with the 'harm' caused by the church, perhaps we can put that in the time-honoured tradition of people being intolerant and angry of views that don't match their own perfect world-order. You fit neatly in that category, what were you gonna do again, 'fucking slap' me cos I don't agree? Ahahaha, real progressive. Whilst you're at it maybe you could threaten to crucify me or burn me at the stake, does it make you *angry* when people don't do or believe what you tell them? Welcome to religious fanaticism.

Loel you went full mad or something. I just wanna slap you because you're fucking stupid, and that's what stupid people deserve. There's no progression expected in this action, specially not with you.

But as a serious rebuttal, a lot of scientists both Christian and Islamic through many centuries have done research and praised a higher power for letting them exist, something something so that they may know such beauty in the truth of our Natural World, something blah blah.

Heskey might troll a lot but that is a valid point.

Ok so they were religious, again, what's the point here you're trying to make? If it wasn't for that particular religion, they'd fill the knowledge void with some other belief, either made up by other people, or their own and in the end, reach the same scientific conclusions.

[Oberyn]

Man, fucking Hindus. There are a few Hindu cults over here, run by various shady people. I read a few articles of people attending events in these cults - they basically get drugged up by drinking some spiked alcohol thing, then "rave" to eastern religious music, etc, all the while being brainwashed. Afterwards, they believe that this cult is somehow saving their lives and become addicts, shelling out big cash to remain in those cults. Fucked up shit.

Also, i know that the whole eastern thing was trendy like a decade or two ago, all that hindu/buddhist shit. One of the festivals i used to attend had a small Hindu corner near the chillout zones (ya know, because somehow Hindu shit is somehow related to psy electronic music and such). Went there out of curiosity... was the exact same religious nonsense as you would expect from some hardcore christian nuts.

That's more New Age idiocy, it's only tangentially related to hinduism by a load of orientalist hippy bullcrap. I would not consider them hindu in any meaningful way.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

Is the word 'Monk' really that difficult to type? Or would it offend your concept of the universe to imagine someone wearing an itchy habit, waking up at a ludicrous hour for morning prayers every day and still theorise about the physical state on the universe in a scientific way?

I suppose monks just copied old texts and manuscripts so that future generations could read texts that would otherwise decay and become unreadable simply cos it was fun. And preserved stone and glassworking after the collapse of the western Roman Empire by accident.

I'll leave the googling to you if that's the only source you can imagine.

If you're so obsessed with the 'harm' caused by the church, perhaps we can put that in the time-honoured tradition of people being intolerant and angry of views that don't match their own perfect world-order. You fit neatly in that category, what were you gonna do again, 'fucking slap' me cos I don't agree? Ahahaha, real progressive. Whilst you're at it maybe you could threaten to crucify me or burn me at the stake, does it make you *angry* when people don't do or believe what you tell them? Welcome to religious fanaticism.

Literate people just spawned there? They didn't learn literacy in monasteries whilst being taught by monks/priests?

Monasteries did teach litteracy to their own workers because that's what you want, intelligent workers.  I mean it's still the same in modern sect, the enlightened are at the top and the bottom only needs the top to enlight themselves. The more the top is enlightened, the best they can manipulate the bottom.

Wasn't it the catholic church that purchased hughenots guilty of owning books, and worked hard against printing and pleb reading the bible by themselves?

I do think there's more that just this litteracy in monasteries that made them discover many things. But the cause would be curiousness. I am a very curious person and for this reason, I went into science to have my answers about the physical world. And for the same reason, curiousness, I wanted to know more about spirituality which led me to study budhism to have answers about my inner self. (and to read all the book advised by witchcraft    )

So there may be a link between religion and discoveries for some people but this link is indirect. Correlation doesn't imply causality.

Yeah no biggie just holding the frail candle of knowledge as it burns alone in a vast sea of ignorance for several hundred years. Now that everyone's literate we can just bulldoze churches/mosques because they are no longer relevant.

I think religions should evovle to let people and society improve themselves but I'm not sure if every religion is able to...
The religion should stay in the spiritual realm, not in the understanding of the physical world and not in the society decisions.

[Vibe]

They're your words, so who went full mad? You cant make me subscribe to your view of the universe so i'm a 'stupid person' therefore I deserve to be attacked physically. And yet you cannot comprehend how a religious person can cause so much evil in trying to impose their religious beliefs on others? You're the perfect example of that kind of behaviour, and the perfect example that retardation is not limited to religious fanatics (or at least that even atheists can be religious fanatics).

You cannot find a way to stop me posting/saying ideas that you disagree with and your knee-jerk reaction is violent action xD why don't you behead some Syrians whilst you're at it. Extremists are dumb fucks.

Do you have a mental illness or something? Have your view of the universe, what fuck do I give. The whole thing is very simple to understand, you're stupid, and my hand wants to land on your face.

XD XDXD

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I don't disagree, and I don't disagree that the role of monasteries in this century is not sustaining an educated class in the same way that it was. But if your argument is based on an obsession over the negatives of religious/intellectual interaction in the past you need to be aware of the positives in the past as well, the medieval intellectuals wouldn't have had the time or resources to study if they were just shit-farmers who had to work in the fields all day.

I have to disagree, as I said I don't think they were ever a positiv interaction just a cohabitation in the mind of some people. And why shit-farmers had to work in the field all day and were not educated? Because they had to pay the tax to the church who owned the land and forbid them to instruct themselves.

It's as if you were living freely, creating and discovering things and writing them in books. Suddenly someone comes, enslaves you, steals your books (burn the half because he didn't like them) and then buy some new books thanks to the money you made him earn.
When at the end of your life you manage to escape (not without some serious injuries), you make him prisoner and now can have access to the library he has amass. Should you be thankfull to him?

[Vibe]

Clearly you give enough of a fuck to get good and mad XD XDXD

You hate religious people. Religious people are dumb. Religious people get angry over their beliefs and want to hurt people who disagree.

On an unrelated note you want to try and slap me (lol, who slaps?), because you got angry and defensive over your beliefs and have lost your shit to the point where you only want to try and attack me because you cannot find the words to stop me or to cope with my counterargument. You're a walking talking hypocrisy, you have more in common with a religious extremist than anyone else here, theist or atheist.

Thank you for continuing to argue, if I ever wanted to prove that it isn't religion that makes people angry, but intolerant bigoted individuals who cannot accept that there are views out there that do not match their own, or cant *stand* having their own arguments applied against themselves, I can show them this thread.

I wouldn't say hate, I would say I dislike religious people (religious as in those that really believe stuff they tell happened or are true) but hate the religion and institutions that come with it, which was my whole point across this thread. Keep telling yourself that I do not want to slap you because you make moronic as fuck arguments, selectively ignore what I said because you can't refute, but rather because I want to impose and/or defend my views and beliefs, or my 'inability' to do so. Like I said, fuck do I care about your views or what you believe and trying to convince you otherwise?

[WITCHCRAFT]

us, again, what's the point here you're trying to make? If it wasn't for that particular religion, they'd fill the knowledge void with some other belief, either made up by other people, or their own and in the end, reach the same scientific conclusions.

we are agreeing but still somehow arguing with each other???

i see your face slap and raise you a plop of the genitals upon your forehead

[Xant]

Yeah no biggie just holding the frail candle of knowledge as it burns alone in a vast sea of ignorance for several hundred years. Now that everyone's literate we can just bulldoze churches/mosques because they are no longer relevant.

You say this sarcastically, but yes, exactly. They served their purpose. Why keep them around now when they're unnecessary?

[Bronto]

You say this sarcastically, but yes, exactly. They served their purpose. Why keep them around now when they're unnecessary?

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[Jeade]

I should start by saying I must have been drunk because I don't remember posting this thread.
I don't even know what I could have been expecting with this thread, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Can't say I'm all too familiar with scientific advancements that came about due to the Church itself, as I've always been under the impression that the Church did everything possible to stifle scientific progress.
They weren't doing it directly for their sole hatred of scientific progress, but instead, because scientific discoveries had the potential to challenge and undermine their authority.

If I'm wrong here, please link me to some resources.
I'm thoroughly confused at what you're getting at, Heskey (but I still love you).

Also, guise, slapping people is assault and I'll have to contact the cyber police and have you arrested and banned IRL.

[Xant]

Saying people should appreciate what religion has done for scientific advancement is like saying you should say thank you to your rapist for not also murdering you.