RIP greece, looks like your paying your own debt now!

[Prpavi]

Panos acts like anyone was actually expecting Greece to pay their debts.
Nobody living in the real world ever did.

And about the debt cuts over 70(!) years ago... it kinda was a different time, wasn't it. Hardly comparable, like World War scenario and all that?
What the heck, let's just ignore that... funny how convenient selective ignorance is.

Proud Greeks! Not feeling one bit ashamed of being the begging bum of Europe. The rather poor Eastern countries displaying more pride than the mighty Greeks.
"You borrowed us billions of Euros but fuck that... we're not paying back that shit! We're entitled to that money cuz... well... we used to be awesome in ancient times, that's why!!1"

Hoping to inspire other countries while most of the countries in similar deep shit are as alienated as... well... funny... the rest of Europe

Tsipras:"We will fight for taxes for the rich! We will fight corruption!" - Reinstates 1000 employees to the state and now talking about amnesty for rich people who were tax evading Such a strong fighter for the working class he is...

Democracy won tho, with 61%! That's good, makes the government strong, so strong that the minster of finance runs away from the game he started, afraid he'll lose it big time.
Tsipras:"We'll have a deal with the EU till Tuesday!" Varoufakis:"Nah, I'm not having this shit any more!" Tsakalotos:"umm... I kinda need read all the stuff first before I can write something down... guys, some help? Guys?! Aww, shit..."


Meanwhile in Germany... "News report: Thousands of schools are in a desperate state. Lessons dropping cause rooms are filled with mold or because there are simply no teachers employed who can teach. In other news: another car crash due to broken motorways. Greece: people are celebrating their No to Europe!"

Yea, I'm feeling bad alright. Sorry Greece for being German... but... I'm born here, it ain't my fault

So forgiving debts 70 years ago for starting a WW is ok, but helping struggling people fucked by corrupt goverment and banks is not nowdays. Why?

[cmp]

So forgiving debts 70 years ago for starting a WW is ok, but helping struggling people fucked by corrupt goverment and banks is not nowdays. Why?

You can trust Germans to learn from their mistakes. Levantines, not so much.

[the real god emperor]

So if they let Greece die, who else will be next? Won't the EU countries lose the trust in the Union gained through decades? Are the members of the most powerful organization in the world so easily left behind?

[Xant]

So forgiving debts 70 years ago for starting a WW is ok, but helping struggling people fucked by corrupt goverment and banks is not nowdays. Why?

It's the difference between forgiving the debt of someone who burns down a house but runs a successful business and forgiving the debt of an incorrigible gambler. The latter is just a waste of time, throwing money down the well, and they'll be in the same situation before you can blink.

So if they let Greece die, who else will be next? Won't the EU countries lose the trust in the Union gained through decades? Are the members of the most powerful organization in the world so easily left behind?

So easily? They voted "no"... they were given a TON of help by the EU. They squandered it. Whatever comes is on their heads.

[Vovka]

It's the difference between forgiving the debt of someone who burns down a house but runs a successful business and forgiving the debt of an incorrigible gambler. The latter is just a waste of time, throwing money down the well, and they'll be in the same situation before you can blink.

So easily? They voted "no"... they were given a TON of help by the EU. They squandered it. Whatever comes is on their heads.

Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he’ll steal your fish.

Loans will not save the economy if they are given only deal with tourism. I have not heard that the European Union gave part of quotas in production in favor of Greece.

[Molly]

So forgiving debts 70 years ago for starting a WW is ok, but helping struggling people fucked by corrupt goverment and banks is not nowdays. Why?

Yes, please, ignore the simple truth that it wasn't just government and banks but the simple man on the street too. Forgetting that they get financial support since they joined 1981 - lowest number I found states 53 billion dollar from 1981 till 2009. On top of that you have to add what they got after 2009. Now, 1981 wasn't Lehman Brother days, right?
And since Germany has always been the majority payer for anything Europe related, I'd say that simply includes any reparation.
That those billions never dripped down to the common folk... well, that's hardly an EU/German problem, is it?
Not to mention that they voted for what's coming.

Funny fact: News report that Tsipras is about to make an emergency package with rules way harder than what the EU suggested, just to stay afloat till Sunday.
He's a clown, the same kind of liar like all the others in the political caste, everybody should clearly see that by now. Not some kind of left-socialist hero he is made out to be.

Oww, and please continue comparing a World War with millions of dead with a financial crash and corruption. Clearly the same thing, very classy

[Vibe]

'fucked by corrupt government'

ridiculously high pensions
employee benefits never seen before

I'm getting more fucked here just by having to pay for the fucking church, that I never had and never will have any use for.

[Prpavi]

Yes, please, ignore the simple truth that it wasn't just government and banks but the simple man on the street too. Forgetting that they get financial support since they joined 1981 - lowest number I found states 53 billion dollar from 1981 till 2009. On top of that you have to add what they got after 2009. Now, 1981 wasn't Lehman Brother days, right?
And since Germany has always been the majority payer for anything Europe related, I'd say that simply includes any reparation.
That those billions never dripped down to the common folk... well, that's hardly an EU/German problem, is it?
Not to mention that they voted for what's coming.

Funny fact: News report that Tsipras is about to make an emergency package with rules way harder than what the EU suggested, just to stay afloat till Sunday.
He's a clown, the same kind of liar like all the others in the political caste, everybody should clearly see that by now. Not some kind of left-socialist hero he is made out to be.

Oww, and please continue comparing a World War with millions of dead with a financial crash and corruption. Clearly the same thing, very classy

Hypocricy at it's finest, well why don't you Germans drop out of the union since by your facts it does nothing for the country financially and otherwise and go solo. I simply don't share you opinion on this matter and wanted to give you the other perspective, I'm sure quite different views in the news are being fed to the people in Germany than in Greece and other countries and not all people share the same opinion on these matters. You find that your stance on this matter is a valid one and yes, you do make some good points but ignoring some other facts also servers your cause well, theres no black and white here. Sterotyping greeks as lazy and corrupt as a whole in this case is not helping here and it's quite offensive.

[Leshma]

You can trust Germans to learn from their mistakes.

We'll see about that. Time will be rebellious once again

[Molly]

Hypocricy at it's finest, well why don't you Germans drop out of the union since by your facts it does nothing for the country financially and otherwise and go solo. I simply don't share you opinion on this matter and wanted to give you the other perspective, I'm sure quite different views in the news are being fed to the people in Germany than in Greece and other countries and not all people share the same opinion on these matters. You find that your stance on this matter is a valid one and yes, you do make some good points but ignoring some other facts also servers your cause well, theres no black and white here. Sterotyping greeks as lazy and corrupt as a whole in this case is not helping here and it's quite offensive.

If you don't mind, please do quote me saying anything about all Greeks being lazy and/or corrupt. I'd be thankful.
And while you're at it looking for fitting quotes, please look for some where I deny that Germany does profit partly from the whole crisis.
Otherwise, by all means, keep assuming.
Hell, even Panos knows my stand better considering this and doesn't accuse me of that any more. Do continue if it makes you feel better tho.

I'm just fed up with my country being painted as the big devil, trying to profit of a crisis which supposingly we even created as some kind of evil Masterplan to enslave Greece
I guarantee you that those profits made during the crisis are way lower than what we're about to lose on loans never being paid back.
There is a simple truth: Everyone would be far happier to keep their money and spend it in their own countries instead of drip-feeding it to Greece. Simple as that.
Stupid Germans, actually paying taxes in their country...

I've read a quote today from Tsipras:"Yes, our tax system is fully broken down by now."
Back 1 or 2 years ago, maybe even more, when Schäuble suggested that German tax collectors might come to Greece to help them rebuild a working system, the next day he was depicted as einstein in his wheelchair as a tank with some title like "Germans trying to invade again"...
Seriously? Fuck them... I'm fed up with those clowns, crying all day "We're the victims... boo-fucking-hoo..."

I do know that a lot of people are just trying to survive, were hard working folks, back when they actually had a job. It still stands that even a lot of the common people profited of clientele politics, especially after '74 (Oberist dictatorship), unwanted people told to not show up at work, still getting paid for decades, now complaining about low pensions which they don't deserve in the first place. A few thousand by the way, not just 10 or 20 of them. Like mentioned before, buildings being listed as "still building" for 20 years cuz if it's finished, it'd cost taxes. Helpers at the referendum getting 75€ when I would get 21€ for the same. And the list goes own.
Lot of "innocent" people caught in the crossfire, suffering for mistakes they didn't commit. Panos' generation especially, I figure. Sucks.
Still being called out as "Nazi Evil German Imperialist" after 70 years sucks too - mistakes my generation, the generation of my parents had nothing to do with.
Maybe I should read some Wiki-articles on the Yugoslavia war and start calling you funny names too. That's gonna help...

I won't forget nor ignore but I'm done with apologising.

(click to show/hide)

Should prolly stop reading this thread... 

Edit: Another fun fact: When asked if the politics in Berlin should lower taxes on income, the majority of Germans said "No". Rather let the state have the money to actually do proper things with it than having a few bucks more per month and infrastructure and culture breaks down. There is a shit ton of abuse with tax money, everyone knows that but still people think that it's a necessary evil to pay taxes.

[BASNAK]

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[Tibe]

Hypocricy at it's finest, well why don't you Germans drop out of the union since by your facts it does nothing for the country financially and otherwise and go solo. I simply don't share you opinion on this matter and wanted to give you the other perspective, I'm sure quite different views in the news are being fed to the people in Germany than in Greece and other countries and not all people share the same opinion on these matters. You find that your stance on this matter is a valid one and yes, you do make some good points but ignoring some other facts also servers your cause well, theres no black and white here. Sterotyping greeks as lazy and corrupt as a whole in this case is not helping here and it's quite offensive.

There is a black and white here. This really is all the Greeks fault. But it has nothing to do with the corrupt/lazyness stereotype. The important fact, that has been like thrown in this thread atleast 10 now is that the Greeks quite frankly gave too much money to their own people. Having fucktons of loopholes in taxation and social benefits and years of giving these social benefits in large numbers, kinda made this current situation absolutely inevitable. Really look at their fucking benefits, not many countries can afford this kind of luxury and neither could they apparently. This current outcome has nothing to do with Germany, EU or Euro. This was just pure overspending. They have to cut back in absolutely everything. The hard realism here is that they never could have afforded all of this in the first place anyway.

I know you are trying your best to protect the greeks here, but god damn it. Its their own doing. Those benefits and bonuses were just insane.

[Falka]

(click to show/hide)

There is a black and white here. This really is all the Greeks fault. But it has nothing to do with the corrupt/lazyness stereotype. The important fact, that has been like thrown in this thread atleast 10 now is that the Greeks quite frankly gave too much money to their own people. Having fucktons of loopholes in taxation and social benefits and years of giving these social benefits in large numbers, kinda made this current situation absolutely inevitable. Really look at their fucking benefits, not many countries can afford this kind of luxury and neither could they apparently. This current outcome has nothing to do with Germany, EU or Euro. This was just pure overspending. They have to cut back in absolutely everything. The hard realism here is that they never could have afforded all of this in the first place anyway.

I know you are trying your best to protect the greeks here, but god damn it. Its their own doing. Those benefits and bonuses were just insane.

Voice of reason.

[Thomek]

It's Greeces fault etc etc yada yada yada.

This is true.

But what can you do? Yeah, what should be done?

All of Europe would benefit from Greece being able to consume and buy their stuff, and otherwise be a partner. We need to punch them hard, slap them until they wake up and see they can't run their societiy like they do. If corruption goes on long enough, the rules and regulations themselves become crafted for corruption. I've seen remnants of such insanity here in Poland. And you get those ridiculous laws and rights they have there. Why the fuck should you pay taxes when all the politicians are corrupt as fuck? Why should you be better?

This is a problem that can only be fixed top down. You need uncorrupt people at the top, and despite the rather ridiculous program of Syriza, it seem they may have one now. At least he seems to fight like a lion for Greece, even if rather clumsily.

The only option is massive debt relief, or to kick them out. Debt cuts is the better of two options since then creditors might get SOMETHING back at least. As well as Greek economy+politics will get a massive pressure on them to change. If you kick them out, it will take them a long time to become consumers, and I fear that in the ensuing chaos and poverty, corruption and bad politics will yet again increase.

I don't fear Italy or Spain will then use it as a leverage. Perhaps a little bit, but nothing massive.

I do think they Greek people and hopefully their politicians by now understand things have to change. Panos can probably fill you in about the general mood when it comes to that.

[Vovka]

2 United Kingdom    9,590,995,000,000    per capita 160,158    406%
3 France    5,750,152,000,000    per capita 86,317    222%
4 Germany    5,546,869,000,000    per capita 68,720    145%

27 Greece    360,000,000,000    per capita 47,636    174%

tell more pls about Greece