Add over head spear attack (with shield)

[CrazyCracka420]

So basically it will be the same thing as when the long spear/pike had an overhand. People would just go around in groups of two with one overhanding and one poking, trolling anyone that is without a teammate. OH, except under this suggestion, it all does pierce.

I don't see two handers comlaining that their lolstab was aimed at your face and you blocked it with a downblock.

If two people are attacking you at once, it should be difficult to block both of their attacks (even if they are attacking the same direction). The limitations of warband prevent this from being possible. So to bring some of that realism, they should allow spears to thrust overhead as well (making them shorter than if they are thrust normally). 

I don't see a problem with that, and it would force more people to use teamwork and tactics rather than rambo zerg rushing the enemy.

[oprah_winfrey]

Then they are no longer a hoplite. So invalid arguement.

Crpg definition of hoplite: one who wields polearm and shield as weapon configuration.

Once the shields on their back they are no longer wielding it.

You are also requireing them to master two fighting styles compared to 2h one fighting style. That is an unjust request.

And two handers dont tap right block to block all attack directions and range. So invalid argument.

[Zerran]

(click to show/hide)

Ok, I get that It looks cool, but otherwise WHY do you suggest this, OP?

As someone else said, it would be rather odd to use this as an opportunity for spear/shield users to get another attack direction. What would the target do to defend himself, do an up-block? I'm not saying it's impossible or anything, but it breaks the idea of "stabs are blocked by down-block".

Perhaps switching to overhead spear mode would alter the weapons stats, and thus make the spearman more useful in 'X' situation. If it shortened the weapon length but increased the speed, perhaps it might serve as a 1-on-1 mode for "hoplites". If this is case, it should still be blocked like every other stabbing attack.

Whether this weapon mode granted a stats alteration, or a new attack direction, I agree with ArchonAlarion in that the weapon's attack angle should change to fit the animation, and thus allow safer thrusting over teammate's shoulders (stabbing over their head would be ridiculous, though).

I sort of support this suggestion. Playtesting would be required, derp. Also, I more support the idea of a different attack angle + stats alteration when in overhead mode, rather than forcing enemies to block a stab with an up-block.

Yeah, I mean imagine if people actually had to TRY while blocking a spear. That would just be total bullshit. /sarcasm

 

[Spa_geh_tea]

And two handers dont tap right block to block all attack directions and range. So invalid argument.

Polearm with shield has a delayed block as well as stun from a blocked attack. 2h only has to currently block in one direction and it is instantanious. They can also chamber with an unchamberable and unblockable overhead attack.

Current shield forcefields allow ranged and melee to hit around shield easily. Dont remember the new angles.

so, invalid arguement.

[Zanze]

So basically it will be the same thing as when the long spear/pike had an overhand. People would just go around in groups of two with one overhanding and one poking, trolling anyone that is without a teammate. OH, except under this suggestion, it all does pierce.

So...you are saying that at the current moment nobody runs around in groups of two overheading at the same time that they have been stabbing? Have you NOT seen NH or KUTT at all? And all pierce damage? I'm pretty sure blunt pierce are available to every weapon style.

Egan, all your arguments are trash. 2 handers don't tap right block to block all attacks and range because they choose to forsake a shield for extra reach, stopping power, and speed.

All in all, I really don't understand why you are so against this rule. Could be you hate polearms in general, because I have seen you in every single polearm buff thread fighting against it and in favor of your precious 2h's. But honestly, in any game, a situation that is 2 versus 1 is NEVER supposed to be in your favor. So, please, enlighten us as to why you are so against giving hoplites a, god forbid, SECOND attack direction? Because ONE attack direction on its own is already so overpowered and completely uncounterable in every way.

[seddrik]

Yeah!   More threads asking that every weapon have identical moves and abilities!  (cough)

Poles are longer.  That is their advantage/disadvantage.  The fact that you can't overhead with a shield (herp derp) is obvious and realistic.  Ever try that IRL? Hold a big trash can lid in one hand and a long spear like stick in the other and see how effective you are. lol...

NO WAIT!  Give overhead to them while they hold a shield!  Yes do that!  And make it so weak that it doesn't damage anyone and make their shield defense DROP due to the feeble & clumsy maneuver!  Yeah!  Give that to them!

[Zerran]

Yeah!   More threads asking that every weapon have identical moves and abilities!  (cough)

Poles are longer.  That is their advantage/disadvantage.  The fact that you can't overhead with a shield (herp derp) is obvious and realistic.  Ever try that IRL? Hold a big trash can lid in one hand and a long spear like stick in the other and see how effective you are. lol...

NO WAIT!  Give overhead to them while they hold a shield!  Yes do that!  And make it so weak that it doesn't damage anyone and make their shield defense DROP due to the feeble & clumsy maneuver!  Yeah!  Give that to them!

Wat.

[oprah_winfrey]

So...you are saying that at the current moment nobody runs around in groups of two overheading at the same time that they have been stabbing? Have you NOT seen NH or KUTT at all? And all pierce damage? I'm pretty sure blunt pierce are available to every weapon style.

All in all, I really don't understand why you are so against this rule. Could be you hate polearms in general, because I have seen you in every single polearm buff thread fighting against it and in favor of your precious 2h's. But honestly, in any game, a situation that is 2 versus 1 is NEVER supposed to be in your favor. So, please, enlighten us as to why you are so against giving hoplites a, god forbid, SECOND attack direction? Because ONE attack direction on its own is already so overpowered and completely uncounterable in every way.

If I had to guess, I would say I have played around 10-15+ gens as polearms, with about 2-3 being dedicated hoplites. I agree that hoplites are underpowered, especially with polestagger removed. I would rather see damage buffed, speed penalty lowered or possibly polestagger added back to support weapons. What I would not want to see is a new attack direction that doesn't follow the pattern that EVERY other melee weapon attack does (a poke that needs to be blocked with an overhand)

Furthermore, one of the arguments everyone seems to be making is OMG one guy blocking down shouldn't invalidate X number of hoplites. But every other class has a simular counter such as shielders against range, pikers against horses, range against two handers.

Egan, all your arguments are trash. 2 handers don't tap right block to block all attacks and range because they choose to forsake a shield for extra reach, stopping power, and speed.

Hoplites get to attack in more then one direction because they choose to equip a shield for extra reach and the ability to tap right block to block all attacks and range.

[Zanze]

What I would not want to see is a new attack direction that doesn't follow the pattern that EVERY other melee weapon attack does (a poke that needs to be blocked with an overhand)

You haven't played napoleonic wars have you? Or you probably missed your morning dose of common sense. Why does holding the weapon at your hip block my stab to the face. If someone to your side makes a right to left swing, why does your left block stop his attack rather then the right block? I mean, the left one isn't supposed to stop that attack, but it does because it just makes sense right. So, I ask again, why does your weapon at the hip block my stab to your face.

Furthermore, one of the arguments everyone seems to be making is OMG one guy blocking down shouldn't invalidate X number of hoplites. But every other class has a simular counter such as shielders against range, pikers against horses, range against two handers.

Don't forget axemen, 2 handers, shielders, maulers, throwers, longspears, pikemen. They all counter hoplites too.
 

Hoplites get to attack in more then one direction because they choose to equip a shield for extra reach and the ability to tap right block to block all attacks and range.

I'm going to assume you mean they don't get to attack in one direction because blah blah blah? Now, I chose to become a hoplite because I was getting focused when I would use my longspear, such is the life of one who makes other people's lives miserable. I lost a good amount of range and damage for the extra survivability. However, why is it that I can fight BETTER with the longspear than with a hoplite. I have the same amount of attacks, a little more reach (which in turn screws me at close range), but no shield to help keep me alive. I move much faster however, and do a great deal more damage than the hoplite.

So in total, by choosing to be a hoplite you lose 1-3 attack directions, 1/3 of your damage and speed, a good amount of speed due to the shield, you must allocate stats to your shield skill(Enough to miss an extra PS or Ath point), and a large amount of range you could have otherwise received if you chose to use another class that fills the same role.

This is balanced to you?

PS,

Yeah!   More threads asking that every weapon have identical moves and abilities!  (cough)

Poles are longer.  That is their advantage/disadvantage.  The fact that you can't overhead with a shield (herp derp) is obvious and realistic.  Ever try that IRL? Hold a big trash can lid in one hand and a long spear like stick in the other and see how effective you are. lol...

NO WAIT!  Give overhead to them while they hold a shield!  Yes do that!  And make it so weak that it doesn't damage anyone and make their shield defense DROP due to the feeble & clumsy maneuver!  Yeah!  Give that to them!

I propose a test. You hold your long spear or broom or stick whateverat your waist, horizontally like in the game of course, and I will stab with my broom/stick/spear at your face. By your logic, you will be perfectly safe. (PS, it's not a clumsy maneuver at all. Go grab your broom and trash can lid and try it.)

[oprah_winfrey]

You haven't played napoleonic wars have you? Or you probably missed your morning dose of common sense. Why does holding the weapon at your hip block my stab to the face. If someone to your side makes a right to left swing, why does your left block stop his attack rather then the right block? I mean, the left one isn't supposed to stop that attack, but it does because it just makes sense right. So, I ask again, why does your weapon at the hip block my stab to your face.

No I haven't played napoleonic wars, I would feel pretty stupid with my prior posts but luckily this is the crpg forum and not the NW forum. I did have my morning dose of common sense, it came in the form of a couple cups of coffee. Have you? EVERY melee class is easily capable of stabbing people in the face with a poke. It is just as easy to do it with a greatsword, italian sword, dueling polearm, long dagger. Why would only hoplites get this advantage?

Don't forget axemen, 2 handers, shielders, maulers, throwers, longspears, pikemen. They all counter hoplites too.

You mean to tell me that a support class is bad at 1v1? Shocking. And yet I still see people like civilian destroy people in 1v1s as a hoplite.

How do throwers, long spears, pikemen counter hoplites?

I'm going to assume you mean they don't get to attack in one direction because blah blah blah?

Yeah that was a typo, my bad.

Now, I chose to become a hoplite because I was getting focused when I would use my longspear, such is the life of one who makes other people's lives miserable. I lost a good amount of range and damage for the extra survivability. However, why is it that I can fight BETTER with the longspear than with a hoplite. I have the same amount of attacks, a little more reach (which in turn screws me at close range), but no shield to help keep me alive. I move much faster however, and do a great deal more damage than the hoplite.

Perhaps because you are more accousted to playing pikeman then hoplite?

So in total, by choosing to be a hoplite you lose 1-3 attack directions, 1/3 of your damage and speed, a good amount of speed due to the shield, you must allocate stats to your shield skill(Enough to miss an extra PS or Ath point), and a large amount of range you could have otherwise received if you chose to use another class that fills the same role.

This is balanced to you?

I said I would like to see the damage buffed or speed penalty lowered. I don't really think that the speed penalty from the shield is really as back breaking as you make it sound, although I could be wrong. The thing that everyone seems to be overlooking is that you can put your shield on your back if you are put into a position that requires additional attack directions. Therefor you don't lose those directions. If you use a warspear as your hoplite weapon you have a perfectly fine weapon without the sheild.

I know people are going to say but then you arent a hoplite derp. But let me say this, if you are a 1h shield do you put it on your back when you are fighting a shield breaker? If you are a twohander that carries a low req shield, do you use it when range is shooting you?

[Spa_geh_tea]

To be honest, I think any arguement against buffing the hoplite class is weak with supporting claims that are bias and do not provide BALANCE to the game.

In any case what really matters is this fundamental question. Since this idea has been proposed many many many times with supporting code examples and a very solid arguement for implimentation.




Why do the devs choose to not impliment a second attack direction for hoplites/seargants/poleshielders.....etc?

I would appreciate a concise and well thought answer from one them if they have the time to do so.

[Zanze]

No I haven't played napoleonic wars, I would feel pretty stupid with my prior posts but luckily this is the crpg forum and not the NW forum. I did have my morning dose of common sense, it came in the form of a couple cups of coffee. Have you? EVERY melee class is easily capable of stabbing people in the face with a poke. It is just as easy to do it with a greatsword, italian sword, dueling polearm, long dagger. Why would only hoplites get this advantage?

Those weapons have other attack directions.

You mean to tell me that a support class is bad at 1v1? Shocking. And yet I still see people like civilian destroy people in 1v1s as a hoplite.

How do throwers, long spears, pikemen counter hoplites?

I "destroy" people 1v1 as a hoplite too, but the people losing are people who have no idea what they are doing(a good majority of the servers). The only skilled player i've ever killed was Miley who thought he could spam me and I was lucky enough to 1 shot her in the face. Everyone else can easily downblock until my shield is broken and then simply outduel me.

Throwers can kite you and their ammunition is shield breaking. Long spears and Pikemen outreach you, and with reach being your only real advantage in almost any situation, you lose.

I said I would like to see the damage buffed or speed penalty lowered. I don't really think that the speed penalty from the shield is really as back breaking as you make it sound, although I could be wrong. The thing that everyone seems to be overlooking is that you can put your shield on your back if you are put into a position that requires additional attack directions. Therefor you don't lose those directions. If you use a warspear as your hoplite weapon you have a perfectly fine weapon without the sheild.

Use a warspear and you are now useless to your team. The hoplite clan preferred warspears over other weapons, they don't do to well atm in my opinion.

I know people are going to say but then you arent a hoplite derp. But let me say this, if you are a 1h shield do you put it on your back when you are fighting a shield breaker? If you are a twohander that carries a low req shield, do you use it when range is shooting you?

1h shield are not forced to put the shield on their back. 2h's do not need to bring a low req shield, I actually think they enjoy getting shot given how many don't bring shields. Hoplites however have no choice when faced with a semi-competent or patient player. What is so groundsbreaking of this overhead stab that bothers you so much Egan? Would it be that hard to accustom yourself to doing an overhead block when the animation for an overhead stab begins?

Also, I'll draw the line here. If there is truly no reasoning with you, we can agree to disagree and hope the devs can actually reply to this.

[oprah_winfrey]

Those weapons have other attack directions.

is this your argument on the matter or is it this

Why does holding the weapon at your hip block my stab to the face. If someone to your side makes a right to left swing, why does your left block stop his attack rather then the right block? I mean, the left one isn't supposed to stop that attack, but it does because it just makes sense right. So, I ask again, why does your weapon at the hip block my stab to your face.

Because my sword still hits you in the face the same just the same as your weapon despite having more then one attack direction.

What is so groundsbreaking of this overhead stab that bothers you so much Egan? Would it be that hard to accustom yourself to doing an overhead block when the animation for an overhead stab begins?

Because it is changing a fundamental of the game that is there are 4 attack direction and 4 blocking directions, blocking down blocks thrusts.

[Sarpton]

And there still would be.   I'm not seeing what your talking about.