Heritage not Hate

[Angantyr]

The idea that the Civil War was entirely about pro-slave/abolitionist, to me feels a little too much like it's praising the moral compass of the northern states. As if the people on the ground fighting the war (from the US side of things) gave a damn about freeing slaves. Could even say it was about representation; where the south votes for one thing, the north votes for another, and the north wins - the south begins to wonder why it should even stay in a government like that (see Scottish referendum). The difference being that a successful declaration of independence provoked a desperate war to keep both halves in the same union.

Though I will concede that when I studied US history (briefly) I was struck by the thick-headed 'we want slaves cos we always done had slaves' mentality from vocal pro-slave southerners despite starting to run out of actual practical reasons to keep slaves. Almost exactly the same intelligent reasoning as behind the pro-gun mentality in large parts of the US today, shows how far we've come.

The Confederacy fought for the perceived right to maintain the institution of race-based slavery, on which its plantation economy (and life of leisure for the slave owners) rested.

From the declaration of independence, Mississippi:
'Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.'

From the justification of secession, Texas:
'We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.'

But the Union didn't go to war to free slaves. And The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't before 1863.

Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, 1861:
'I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.'

Lincoln in 1862: 'My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.... I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.'

The American Civil War was a text book power struggle between states, no matter how much it has been anachronistically romanticized for modern popular consumption.

[Christo]

TBH this whole thing reminds me of the idiots who call this a nazi symbol:

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Well, guess what:

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OMFG, GERMANY IS STILL NAZI CONFIRMED, MERKEL MAKES 4TH REICH, BAN THE BALKENKREUZ BECUZ WEHRMEHT USED IT IN WAR

[Torost]

A simplified rant on the situation leading to the american civil war:

One of the key issues pre american civil war was high tarrifs, taxes and restrictions set on exportcommodities produced by the southern plantations,mainly cotton.

The industry in the north was not yet competative with european industry.
It was important for the flow of goods that southern wares went thru the north. Filling tradingships both ways over the atlantic.

The southerners did not wish to subsidize the northern industry with cheap commodities, so they sought to secede.

When civil war broke out, trying to remove the souths workforce, the slaves was the logical step.
Ofc this was easier since it had become unfashionable to condone slavery/ growing abolitionistmovement.

[Xant]

All the greatest civilizations have had slavery.

[Oberyn]

Of course, we wouldn't want to praise the North's moral compass over the South's, cause after all everything is completely relative and equal to each other. We need to satisfy your pathological need for cultural relativism. And close it with a completely retarded comparison of fucking slavery to weapon rights, fantastic.

[Oberyn]

All the greatest civilizations have had slavery.

All civilizations prior to the industrial revolution. Once you start approaching the IR (even Renaissance era was already there imo), slavery becomes more of a burden to a society and inneficient. I'd say that's the only real reason slavery dissapeared. Because it was materially no longer an advantage as it had been throughout all of human history.

[Grytviken]

That flag was introduced in 1862 because the traitor national flag looked so much like the US flag that it caused friendly fire incidents. I agree that flag does not represent the politics of the war, it was issued to the field army's of the south only. The flag can be seen as racist when it is taken out of it's context of course, as can any other flag, so where do you draw the line.

The ugly truth is that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, but over a political system and economy that the South increasingly became more paranoid of and viewed as against hostile to their interests and survival, who do you think bought and became rich off of the cotton by manufacturing it? The Northern states and the Great Britain.  75% of the 5 million spindles in America were in the Northern states. 

During the New York City draft riots freed slaves were murdered on sight by Irish immigrants and hung from street lamps all over the city.

Times were totally different, Woman were considered property at this time as well.

It was also a poor man's war, if you owned 10 slaves or more you were exempt from service in the traitor Army, and in the North you could pay a tax to evade service as well.

The South saw this war as a second revolution , Robert E. Lee's father served under George Washington as his Cavalry commander and his wife was directly related to George Washington and many other traitor's were related to the founding fathers of old.

The emancipation of slavery was not the cause of the war, but a result of the war, but the traitor flag and monuments sure make great political punching bags to keep people's eyes off of the US flag and the monuments to the founding fathers.

[Grytviken]

The Confederacy fought for the perceived right to maintain the institution of race-based slavery, on which its plantation economy (and life of leisure for the slave owners) rested.

From the declaration of independence, Mississippi:
'Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.'

From the justification of secession, Texas:
'We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.'

But the Union didn't go to war to free slaves. And The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't before 1863.

Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, 1861:
'I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.'

Lincoln in 1862: 'My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.... I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.'

The American Civil War was a text book power struggle between states, no matter how much it has been anachronistically romanticized for modern popular consumption.

It was a personal grudge against the Northern politicians. After fighting two wars against Great Britain and another against Mexico the South felt that the North had no right whatsoever to be the ones who would dictate the constitution. So yes slavery was an issue as there was no solution to ending it without destroying the entire US economy in the process, Lincoln himself opposed ending slavery for this very reason. If the North could have won the war without abolishing slavery they would have. The South was also a very peculiar society and felt increasingly paranoid of a slave revolt like Haiti and the incident at Harper's Ferry reminded them of the dangers of this and  perpetuated paranoia and hostility.

[Oberyn]

Again, the institution of slavery was being deliberately and continuously undermined by northerners who had very different cultural values regarding it. You're saying all the philosophers, politicians, writers, preachers, institutions and organizations, people from all walks of life and social strata devoted to ending slavery that existed in the north were totally irrelevant, when they are the very fucking reason behind the tensions that led to war in the first place. It's there in plain ink, in every single southern state's declaration of independence from the federal government and declaration of allegiance to the traitor one. The tiptoing around the obvious main issue by Lincoln is the exact same attitude that would later lead to the absolute failure of postwar reconstruction.

[Grytviken]

Why wouldnt we want to praise it over the South's? The northern view proved to be by far the most progressive.

I just dont want to praise the north in and of itself for fighting the Civil War, since as Angatyr posted the North wasnt fighting to free the slaves, it was fighting to preserve the Union (very much how Britain fought to try and preserve the Colonies during the revolutionary war). That notion is an incredibly dumbed down and deluded fantasy that the north was this incredible white knight pursing slave rights. To quote a post you agreed with:

The pathological need to discuss cultural relativism seems to be entirely in your court.

During our revolutionary war against Great Britain, the British offered all slaves emancipation and farmland in Canada if they ran away from their masters to serve in the British Army. Even though Great Britain lost the war they made good on their promise and a large number of their decedents still live in Halifax to this day. Does that make the US flag racist too? Anything can be taken out of context, I agree that the traitor flag shouldn't be flown over a capitol building, but it's fine in the setting of a war memorial.

Comparing it to a swa stika or saying that it is a symbol of hate is ignorant, the Civil War was a much different and horrific war the likes none had seen before, and whether traitor soldiers believed in slavery or not, southerners were facing an invasion of their land, pillaging, vandalism, destruction of towns, starvation of their civilian population due to the blockade, railroads, etc, everyone had to fight, there was no choice when the war fully escalated.

[Oberyn]

Hahahahaha, the American Civil War is one the "cleanest" wars ever fought in recorded history. For all the cultural differences the north and south were still populated by largely the same people, english speaking protestants. How many civilians died in the Civil war? In proportion to actual fighters? You realize that the constant of wars throughout history was that civilians were overwhelmingly the majority of victims? Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit claims of most horrible war ever seen before, that's the most retarded revisionist shit I've ever heard.

[Grytviken]

Hahahahaha, the American Civil War is one the "cleanest" wars ever fought in recorded history. For all the cultural differences the north and south were still populated by largely the same people, english speaking protestants. How many civilians died in the Civil war? In proportion to actual fighters? You realize that the constant of wars throughout history was that civilians were overwhelmingly the majority of victims? Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit claims of most horrible war ever seen before, that's the most retarded revisionist shit I've ever heard.

You're obviously ignorant to what 300,000 soldiers will do for food and supplies when they run out. Both Army's foraged the country sides dry leaving the civilians in the south with nothing, on top of an already diminishing surplus of food available for the south because it was completely cut off.

[AntiBlitz]

You're obviously ignorant to what 300,000 soldiers will do for food and supplies when they run out. Both Army's foraged the country sides dry leaving the civilians in the south with nothing, on top of an already diminishing surplus of food available for the south because it was completely cut off.

dont leave out Atlanta, they burnt a third of it to the ground for the hell of it lol.

[Oberyn]

You're obviously ignorant of what happened and continues to happen in wars where the people fighting it aren't of the same ethnicity, religion, and other tribal identifications. You must be literally fucking retarded, "most horrible war in history"? Do you have any idea what the colonial powers did in the exact same time period? What the average war between "uncivilized" countries led to? What wars in continental Europe were like? You stupid motherfucker. I notice you didn't respond to my question about civilian casualties. Tell me, what was it, and how comparable is it to any other war in the exact same time period the world over? And every other war before it, since it was, in your estimation, the "most horrible one" yet?
Fuck, just look at what happened after the war. Do you think the northern "occupation" led to to the same sorts of events that occupation after a war usually leads to?

[Turkhammer]

The Stars and Bars was a traitor battle flag.  It was the flag of a section of the US that declared war upon the US, a rebellion if you will.  The traitor States of America set itself up as a separate nation, attacked the United States, fought a war and surrendered to the United States.  As such any symbol of the CSA, including it's battle flag has no business flying over any State capital in the US.

Let it be displayed in museums or on private property if need be.