Turkish Elections 2015 (Happening today....inb4 civil war)

[Teeth]

Yes, the classic strawman. I said nothing at all about population replacement in western countries, so how exactly did I deny it? I merely stated that Japan's population is declining faster than EU populations. With population being the number of inhabitants, I should have realized that population for you probably means something like "the number of people without any foreign born ancestors in their last 7 generations" and that you would jump to conclusions. I fully realize that the faster decline in Japan is partly because of low immigration relative to many European countries.

[LordBerenger]

Erdogan confirmed to declare jihad against Europe.

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[the real god emperor]

Afaik with the amount of troops &weapons&vehicles compared to the world , we are quite allright. But we are lacking training and modernization.

[Oberyn]

You say my "projections" (which are simple and obvious observation) aren't factual, then immediately say you have no problem with what those "projections" entail. Anyways, good luck with your wonderful utopia where group identity does not exist. It's a totally realistic goal. Only your entire society, economy and governmental mechanisms are based around the idea of a nation, I'm sure nothing untoward would happen if you just phase it out, and there will be no similar tribal identity to take it's place, merely perfect karmic balance til the end of times.

[Xant]

Afaik with the amount of troops &weapons&vehicles compared to the world , we are quite allright. But we are lacking training and modernization.

If you look at Iraq's equipment before the Gulf War and Invasion of Iraq in 2003, they had some really good stuff as well -- as good/more than Turkey in some aspects. Amount of troops means almost nothing in modern warfare, training and modern equipment do; and with the material superiority of the US they can bombard any kind of conventional army into mush and completely destroy the opposing air force in days (both with their own aircraft and their highly-trained troops specialized in taking airfields). There's just no contest, China might be a threat in a few decades, but against NATO any sort of a conventional war (or guerrilla war if the military was unleashed) would be an exercise in futility at the moment and for the foreseeable future.

[Teeth]

You say my "projections" (which are simple and obvious observation) aren't factual, then immediately say you have no problem with what those "projections" entail.

No, I say your projections aren't factual, thus I disagree with your projections. Not entirely, but partly. I see a profound lack of patriotism or nationalistic identity in my country, and it does not seem problematic. I do think there are dangers to certain kinds of immigration, but the solution does not lie in patriotism.

[Oberyn]

Religion is just a facet of culture, and in europe a relatively minor one since the advent of the french revolution and the subsequent rise of nationalism as the primary factor of identification. I'm perfectly fine with christianity not having one fucking ounce of government power or influence. There's this thing called secularism, you may have heard of it, integral part of quite a few european cultures for centuries now. Very cute quotes around "culture" though. Is there nothing divorced from religion that can be culture for you? Because I personally think the best parts of european culture come from it's distancing of theocratic bullshit, actually.

[Oberyn]

No, I say your projections aren't factual, thus I disagree with your projections. Not entirely, but partly. I see a profound lack of patriotism or nationalistic identity in my country, and it does not seem problematic. I do think there are dangers to certain kinds of immigration, but the solution does not lie in patriotism.

It does not seem problematic because times are good. Because the fat is flowing and there's enough for everyone, so much so that we can afford to be very generous to immigrants and simultaneously bemoan how horrible and not generous enough we are (compared to what, exactly? as far as I can tell a fantasy of world-wide open borders that exist only in the minds of ingenuous idealists). What do you think patriotism is for? It's for when times are rough. Do you truly think europe will never face any rough times in the future? How can you ask people to sacrifice for something they have no attachment to?

[Doom_Carrot]

Why do you care so much about turkey lol

Because Turkey is the most critical player right now in the war of the Islamic State.

As of now they have been a really finicky player, and I (heard) rumors that they were letting ISIS fihters into Iraq but not the Kurds, because they are the "greater threat"

If you do not understand how catasthrophic and terrible the islamic state is, look it up. They are basically naz!s 2.0

[Oberyn]

It's pretty good, but our calendar and celebrations and acts of remembrance/memorialisation are all steeped in it - or at the very least derive from religious practice. When I think of pure representation of a culture, elements that distinguish one from the other, I immediately think of those more notable occasions (particularly the way we memorialise the dead).

How would you define your culture? And how would you consider it to be ruined or supplanted by immigration? Eg. what's your worst case scenario 'We no longer have/do X therefore my culture is dead'?

No culture ever dies completely, unless it's all out genocide, which really wasn't that unusual even a few hundred years ago, and arguably still happens on a much smaller scale in certain parts of the world.
In any case, objectively there are but very few cultural traits I would consider incompatible and a bad addition to a hypothetical melting pot result. It's not so much about the culture being "ruined" and "supplanted" as the fact that, devoid of any judgements about "good" or "bad", a bunch of european cultures were and still are to a certain extent unique. I don't think, say, Saudi Arabia should import tens of thousands of irishmen. I'm sure their culture would be enriched by such a vibrant exotic addon, but the area, like every single other fucking area on the planet, has a unique cultural legacy inextricably attached to the people and the land. And in any case they have absolutely no interest in such a thing. They are proud inheritors of a cultural tradition, heavily rooted in religion, that has shaped a gigantic area over more than a thousand years. They have no interest in abandoning that for some cultural engineering experiment. No other cultures on the planet do. The chinese harken to a legacy stretching back thousands of years. The entire indian subcontinent are fiercely attached to their myriad denominations, cultures, ethnicities. The examples are as endless as there are tribal identities that people adhere to. Despite similar situations in europe, all of this past, this idea of being a link in a great chain, of, yes, respect for your ancestors and their accomplishments and what they built (as biased and propagandized and mythologized as it always is regardless of culture), is being pretty much abandoned.
I guess that's when I think the cultural shift will have become so wide that it won't recognizeably be the same culture anymore. It's already pretty much here, as Tibe shows. 

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I'm pretty sure if you asks indian or chinese, they will also tell you that their culture has radically changed. (chinese legacy stretching back thousand years, hahaha ever heard of cultural revolution?) I think you're idealising other part of the planet and having a dark view on western countries. All culture are changing, especially in those times of globalisation.

"Do you truly think europe will never face any rough times in the future? How can you ask people to sacrifice for something they have no attachment to? "
My grand parents from mother side were from vietnam and moved to France, but now after 2 generations, I don't have much asiatic cultural traits anymore. Minorities are minorities. In the end, you're end up assimilated in the place your family has lived, because the majority of people around you will influence you.

The proof would be that despite the immigrants that have been incorporated in each canton of Switzerland. Each canton is still very different from each other in its culture, those differences have been made by centuries of history and it's not something that immigration can clear up.

And most of the people from immigrants descent feel attached to their host country because it's the one they can identify to and the one they know the best.

They're not bad by ME standards, but they're not a threat to Europe.

Obeyrn: -"they already are a threat to our culture!!"

[Oberyn]

You really have no idea how chauvinistic and conservative the vast majority of the rest of the world's cultures are by western standards, don't you? Tell me, you travel much?

[ecorcheur_brokar]

Yes I travelled a lot, and yes I saw that other were more chauvinistic. But I found nothing positiv in it, and surely didn't had any admiration for that, on the opposite, it made me realise how great Europe was to keep its ideals up despite the difficulties.

And I can also report that everywhere else in the world, culture was also changing (quite fast) but not everywhere it was considered a bad thing. In Asia, it was seen with a rather optimistic view when in middle-east not so much...and guess who gets the better of it.....

[Oberyn]

What do you mean by their culture changing exactly? I don't see China attempting to import millions of Indians or Pakistanis. I don't see any country in asia facing immigration to the point that their dominant culture is affected in any way, really. You mean they're addopting technological innovations that are changing their culture? That's not exactly the same thing.

[the real god emperor]

If you look at Iraq's equipment before the Gulf War and Invasion of Iraq in 2003, they had some really good stuff as well -- as good/more than Turkey in some aspects. Amount of troops means almost nothing in modern warfare, training and modern equipment do; and with the material superiority of the US they can bombard any kind of conventional army into mush and completely destroy the opposing air force in days (both with their own aircraft and their highly-trained troops specialized in taking airfields). There's just no contest, China might be a threat in a few decades, but against NATO any sort of a conventional war (or guerrilla war if the military was unleashed) would be an exercise in futility at the moment and for the foreseeable future.

Well, amount of troops sure is not important if you re on the other side world. But we are kinda in the middle of everything.

Saddam's mistake was that he did't get himself a few strong allies, with noone supporting him US could just go all in, but TR is a part of NATO so in a possible war in Middle East , we are quite safe.