#NeverForget1915

[Kafein]

I just tried to read the OP for the first time and ;

Dude, what on earth are you talking about?

I mean, does that seem to make sense to you? I am trying to see it from your perspective , but considering that harem is a 17 18th century thing, and everyone in the Empire except the Sultan are considered as slaves , it seems pretty bullshit.
I have never denied the death marches , killing 7 armenians to get in Heaven, leaving the prisoners without food or water. Only a liar or a retard could  deny it. But the term "genocide" is used when you just destroy them without a normal reason, only acting with hatred.But back then , Armenian militias were ambushing generals, rich people and were plundering villages for over 50 years ( this is the part which nobody sees ) , meaning tensions slowly risen between Turks and Armenians for a long time. Here is the quote from the only Armenian guy in cRPG who kept playing dtv " Seeing my grandmother crying like that was so sad " oh , how about turkish grannies? Are they sitting on their back and laughing and saying " suck it noobz" ? I think not.
If someone says to me "armenians were completely innocent and turks came murdered and raped" then proves it, i would be so grateful.

Dude wat

Do you even know what a genocide is?

[the real god emperor]

Dude wat

Do you even know what a genocide is?

Sigh

If I do/know something wrong , would you enlighten me then?

If all murders against an ethnicity called a genocide , it wouldn't be wrong to say that Armenians genocided on Turks as well. Oops nonono thats quite the opposite of how you guys want it.

[Kafein]

Sigh

If I do/know something wrong , would you enlighten me then?

If all murders against an ethnicity called a genocide , it wouldn't be wrong to say that Armenians genocided on Turks as well. Oops nonono thats quite the opposite of how you guys want it.

The thing is, Armenians were removed from the lands they inhabited and killed including civilians, women, children etc. The aim was to remove Armenian presence in Turkey altogether. What characterizes a genocide is the systematic and organized manner in which it is orchestrated, which is exactly the reason why the word genocide was coined following the events of 1915. However "justified" is the killing of millions of civilians doesn't matter.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I'm not saying we shouldn't recognize the genocide. It is good that everyone knows in the west that armenians were persecuted and killed as it is always good when people know how history happened. I think it is great that a lot of countries in Europe have recognized it but they did it for the wrong reasons (to keep turkey away) and that's to blame.

What I'm saying is that it is stupid to force the turkish governement to recognize the genocide as nothing good will come of this enforced recognition:
-The turks will feel humiliated for this imposed opinion and will react in the opposite direction.
-It will justify in their eyes the persecution of armenians. Because in their heads it will be like: "if armenians are so supported in the west, they must be pro-westerner as young-turks suspected it."
-If the governement recognize the genocide due to international pressure but stays internally entiled to its opinion. There will never be any debate inside Turkey, the turks will never grab the concept of genocide and will keep their opinion that there never was any genocide.

I just forgot to add how genocide should be recognized in Turkey in a way that society changes its opinion. The realisation of past mistake has been made by juducial system in Germany and Cambodgia. But in the case of armenian, it's a bit too late for that. So:
- A comission of expert could be nominated by the government to clarify everything that had happened during the period.
This is what has happened in Switzerland to investigate the relation of Switzerland with Germany during YMCA. This solution would be highly unlikely with the current turkish gouvernment.
- A national debate could be produce by activism coming from turk and armenian people.

Another things that bother me with the west (or at least french) recognition of the genocide is that some of them didn't faced their history yet and are not in a position to give lesson to others.

There's a french expression (that sadly they so rarely apply) that is: "Before looking at the straw in your neighboor's eye, pay attention at the beam you have in yours". Ofc it is good that french realise there have been a genocide on armenians but the  lesson they could learn from their own history would much more relevant to them to change the way they currently interact with Africa.

The france participated to the Sétif massacre commemoration only in 2015. So while it was giving lesson to Turkey, it was hiding its own past.

Edit: Genocide is the aim of the massacre, the aim must be the extermination. I seriously doubt armenians ever wanted to eradicate turks...

[Leshma]

What is this, Tovi's second forum account?

[ecorcheur_brokar]

Hahaha so you don't appreciate when someone denounce and doesn't look away from our ("western") own fault? easier to look at turk gouvernement action? You feel the need to put down someone who speak up about "your country" problem. In the end, you're just like the turks that refuce to face their own errors...

[Leshma]

First of all, I'm not from western Europe. Second, I've mentioned Srebrenica genocide. Have no problem to acknowledge facts, even if they go against the nation I'm part of. And don't feel guilt because I wasn't involved. But I feel for victims and understand that nation as a whole has to be held responsible for what has been done by lunatics they put in charge.

It is hard for people to cope with that and it is understandable. Some share stronger bond with their nation. But it shouldn't be avoided, like Turks and Japanese do.

[[ptx]]

Is the fact of any of those events being denied at an official level? No? Welp, what a waste of a post.

[Kafein]

Is the fact of any of those events being denied at an official level? No? Welp, what a waste of a post.

Well, at least it has the merit of putting things in perspective.

By the way France recognizes its many, many more recent errors concerning e.g. Algeria and the numerous nuclear tests there and in the Pacific.

[Oberyn]

Is the fact of any of those events being denied at an official level? No? Welp, what a waste of a post.

The exact opposite, really. Especially at university levels, the trend has been revisionist for decades (not in the "holocaust denial" sense, but in the "our entire history is "eurocentric" and as such erroneous, biased and propagandist in it's very roots" sense, which was the original academic meaning before the neochocolate chip cookies appropriated it for one very specific historical event). Compare that to the situationin Turkey, where you're not even legally allowed to have the opinion that it was a genocide publically. Heskey trying to reframe a topic by ironically bringing his ethnocentric baggage into it? Predictable, really.

[Oberyn]

Well, at least it has the merit of putting things in perspective.

By the way France recognizes its many, many more recent errors concerning e.g. Algeria and the numerous nuclear tests there and in the Pacific.

Yeah, really puts the holocaust in perspective, when you look at those numbers. Truly we should tell Germany to stop self-flagellating about WW2 and einstein, it makes no sense that they care more about that than the millions of chinese deaths Mao was responsible for. /retard logic

[Kafein]

Yeah, really puts the holocaust in perspective, when you look at those numbers. Truly we should tell Germany to stop self-flagellating about WW2 and einstein, it makes no sense that they care more about that than the millions of chinese deaths Mao was responsible for. /retard logic

What's your point? I'm not in charge of what other people care about, and I wouldn't want to be. Everyone has the right to care about anything they want, and any choice they make will be fundamentally irrational anyway. Personally, none of that really interests me, although I believe there is a great value in historical truth regardless. Germany is a much smaller country than China, which is where the part about perspective comes in. If the holocaust had happened in China we'd be counting deaths in the 100s of millions.

[Oberyn]

-Great value in historical truth
-Thread about denying genocide of armenians
-What's my point?

Do I really need to spell it out for you? Is the juxtaposition of the way Germany handles it's past history in an official capacity and the way Turkey does not enough? Again, you can be arrested for publically having an opinion on this historical event that does not concord with the official government one. And you want to pretend that we can't judge that as incredibly fucked up? What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[Lt_Anders]

Bad government policies over collectivization doesn't count as Genocide. It's Fratricide!

[the real god emperor]

You guys are misunderstanding me. What I want to say is briefly; Armenian militia was attacking Turkish citizens in the East , and heavily racist leader of Union and Progress (sultan had limited powers then) Enver, and his comrades Talat and Cemal decided to apply a law to migrate Armenian pop to Syria, that happened so fast that they didnt even consult this to their own party. So they picked the correct soldiers and volunteered citizens for the job, and put genocide on our 600 years of brothers, Armenians. I ve never denied that it was a genocide , I am just trying to say that it didnt happen on Ottoman people s will , and Armenians were undoubtedly damaging the Empire , which was going through a bad war for them.