#NeverForget1915

[Imperious]

new turkey created by Atatürk and it happend at 1923 mate sorry if that genocide happend it made by Vahdettin order and we wipe out him also we get some privilege at Lozan ''the young Turkey not responsabile of ottoman payments''

[Daunt_Flockula]

I wanted to ignore this, but seeing how it has already sparked up, I guess I should as well make a comment.

This is an issue that has to be researched heavily by reading more than a few books from both sides of the issue. But getting a fancy avatar and copypasting a wall of text from godknowswhere is more comfortable to do.

Back to the topic though. There certainly were killings and deportations, which could be justified or totally unjustifiable depending on what perspective you have (note that I am not suggesting either personally). It is clear that the killings also stemmed from the other side. There are accounts of that too.

Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?". There has been lots of violence and bloodshed in the Turkish history. Even in not-so-distant past, Alevites and Kurds suffered a great deal too. Just like the Armenian issue, these (in particular the Kurdish issue) has been brought to the table over and over again. I mean why the fuck on earth does some European or US parliament have to vote as to whether it took place or not? Why? Somebody tell me. I don't mean to say it is not an issue open to discussion, but why does someone have to furnish a long post about it? What is there to be had? I call this "an attempt to install a handle". Once the handle is installed, once the so-called guilt is acknowledged, what will happen next? I guess we know the answer very well.

This is the exact reason why all past governments have been denying everything that happened in the past. That is why an enormous fascist like Tardogan can still rise to power after all this time and use the words "Armenian, Alevite or Kurd" to actually "insult" people. That is why a great man of Armenian origin, Hrant Dink was murdered in a plot that was very well known to everyone who could humanely stop it. That is why the sheep of Tardogan still consider the very last few Armenian citizens we have as enemies. That is also why we are socially a lot more fragmented now than ever. Even if we could finally get a good and ideal government to take control (which is utopic still), they would be entirely reluctant to confess or admit anything to the world. Not in a world where the West is only interested in attaching a handle to Turkey, just like they did with the Kurdish issue.

I would like that to happen, you know. I'd like someone to step up and curse the shameful events aimed at minorities in the past (include Kurds and Alevites). If you talk to a citizen of Armenian origin with a rational mind, you will see that all they want is acknowledgement. And why not give that them? I am all for it. But they will also tell you the same things, that it is downright absurd for some other nation's parliament to vote for it, that it is only mealymouthed bullshit. They don't want blood for blood or some of our eastern lands to be given to them. What about the highly-concerned great civilizations of the West? What the fuck do they actually want? I have never seen colonial massacres or instigated internal massacres like the Hutu-Tutsi issue of Rwanda being voted in our parliament. Because, our "handle attaching capacities" are close to nought, right? Is that it?

Everyone has to understand that being an external monkey wrench in someone else's tires is not doing any good. It only deepens the problem. At this rate, I don't think there will ever be such acknowledgement, which is a shame.

Also, Berenger, your aptalturk rants are getting moronic. Get a grip, man.

[Leshma]

Why is everyone so deeply interested?

Actually, very few people care about this. Media coverage was piss poor. It has passed 100 years since it happened and we still don't know much about it. That is why people are interested.

I've linked source at the end of the post. It is taken from history.com

Don't feel bad, Turkey isn't the only country denying their past crimes. Japan does it too.

[Christo]

[Paul]

Young turks are trouble in Germany too.

[[ptx]]

Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?"

Same reason why denying Holocaust, for example, is a terrible thing to do. Plenty of countries and people try to brush uncomfortable historical facts aside or make them seem less important, but far fewer actually go ahead and outright deny them. Because it is historical revisionism and should be be abhorred in a modern society.

[Daunt_Flockula]

You realize how it has become a handle attached to Germans too, right? It is impossible nowadays to talk to a foreigner as a German dude without getting the good old natzee stereotype. I don't necessarily have to be German myself to notice it. I do witness it all the time. It is hideous. It is disgusting. It may not work as a politically influential handle against a big nation like Germany, yet people love to smear it on Germans' faces time and time again. What are they supposed to do? Walk around with heads covered with paper bags?


The truth is, ugly and horrible things happened in everyone's histories. The peace should come naturally on a domestic level, not through constant external nagging. If western countries were truly honest with their caring attitude towards mass killings, they would have never daftly allowed the emergence of, say, ISIS. That shit is happening presently, you know. It is not something of 100 years of age. After feeding these goat fuckers, arming and letting them rampage, all those responsible are sitting in their TV armchairs and watching them kill infants, rape women and take them as sex slaves, destroy landmarks of historical significance, behead people like they were chickens etc. etc.

Go stop that before it becomes a shame in history, no? Showdown airstrikes and furious public speeches are not deceiving anyone. Europe and the US will have to shut the hell up about any past event when they are presently shitting all over the Middle East.

[Christo]

Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?"

Erm, because your representatives deny it furiously?

And don't bring the Germans into this, they have actually faced their past and dealt with their shame already.

[Daunt_Flockula]

I didn't bring Germany into this. Mine was merely a comment on ptx's post. As for the furious denial, I think I pretty much clarified that in my first reply.

[Kafein]

Young turks are trouble in Germany too.

The Young Turks are a disgrace, Cenk is such an asshole.

You realize how it has become a handle attached to Germans too, right? It is impossible nowadays to talk to a foreigner as a German dude without getting the good old natzee stereotype. I don't necessarily have to be German myself to notice it. I do witness it all the time. It is hideous. It is disgusting. It may not work as a politically influential handle against a big nation like Germany, yet people love to smear it on Germans' faces time and time again. What are they supposed to do? Walk around with heads covered with paper bags?

Everybody realizes it's a cliché, which is the reason it's funny and not disgusting.

The truth is, ugly and horrible things happened in everyone's histories. The peace should come naturally on a domestic level, not through constant external nagging. If western countries were truly honest with their caring attitude towards mass killings, they would have never daftly allowed the emergence of, say, ISIS. That shit is happening presently, you know. It is not something of 100 years of age. After feeding these goat fuckers, arming and letting them rampage, all those responsible are sitting in their TV armchairs and watching them kill infants, rape women and take them as sex slaves, destroy landmarks of historical significance, behead people like they were chickens etc. etc.

Go stop that before it becomes a shame in history, no? Showdown airstrikes and furious public speeches are not deceiving anyone. Europe and the US will have to shut the hell up about any past event when they are presently shitting all over the Middle East.

Okay what now? Did I just got teleported outside of the thread about the Armenian genocide? Your attitude tells more than everything you avoid saying.

I wanted to ignore this, but seeing how it has already sparked up, I guess I should as well make a comment.

This is an issue that has to be researched heavily by reading more than a few books from both sides of the issue. But getting a fancy avatar and copypasting a wall of text from godknowswhere is more comfortable to do.

There is no need for further research to conclude that what happened in 1915 was a genocide.

Back to the topic though. There certainly were killings and deportations, which could be justified or totally unjustifiable depending on what perspective you have (note that I am not suggesting either personally). It is clear that the killings also stemmed from the other side. There are accounts of that too.

I'd be glad to read the accounts of dozens of Turkish villages sent on death marchs.

Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?". There has been lots of violence and bloodshed in the Turkish history. Even in not-so-distant past, Alevites and Kurds suffered a great deal too. Just like the Armenian issue, these (in particular the Kurdish issue) has been brought to the table over and over again. I mean why the fuck on earth does some European or US parliament have to vote as to whether it took place or not? Why? Somebody tell me. I don't mean to say it is not an issue open to discussion, but why does someone have to furnish a long post about it? What is there to be had? I call this "an attempt to install a handle". Once the handle is installed, once the so-called guilt is acknowledged, what will happen next? I guess we know the answer very well.

We do know the answer: the Turkish image on the international scene would improve. Right now Turkey is clearly unable to deal with its own history. Have you tried speaking about Chechnya to Russians? That's exactly how you sound.

This is the exact reason why all past governments have been denying everything that happened in the past. That is why an enormous fascist like Tardogan can still rise to power after all this time and use the words "Armenian, Alevite or Kurd" to actually "insult" people. That is why a great man of Armenian origin, Hrant Dink was murdered in a plot that was very well known to everyone who could humanely stop it. That is why the sheep of Tardogan still consider the very last few Armenian citizens we have as enemies. That is also why we are socially a lot more fragmented now than ever. Even if we could finally get a good and ideal government to take control (which is utopic still), they would be entirely reluctant to confess or admit anything to the world. Not in a world where the West is only interested in attaching a handle to Turkey, just like they did with the Kurdish issue.

I would like that to happen, you know. I'd like someone to step up and curse the shameful events aimed at minorities in the past (include Kurds and Alevites). If you talk to a citizen of Armenian origin with a rational mind, you will see that all they want is acknowledgement. And why not give that them? I am all for it. But they will also tell you the same things, that it is downright absurd for some other nation's parliament to vote for it, that it is only mealymouthed bullshit. They don't want blood for blood or some of our eastern lands to be given to them. What about the highly-concerned great civilizations of the West? What the fuck do they actually want? I have never seen colonial massacres or instigated internal massacres like the Hutu-Tutsi issue of Rwanda being voted in our parliament. Because, our "handle attaching capacities" are close to nought, right? Is that it?

Everyone has to understand that being an external monkey wrench in someone else's tires is not doing any good. It only deepens the problem. At this rate, I don't think there will ever be such acknowledgement, which is a shame.

Also, Berenger, your aptalturk rants are getting moronic. Get a grip, man.

Firstly, genocides are everybody's business, they are crimes against humanity as a whole. Second, if I understand your point, you're essentially saying that the Armenian genocide is not recognized because that would legitimize giving away a part of Turkey's territory? Seldom have I heard something more stupid.

[Daunt_Flockula]

If you had paid more attention, you would understand that I am not avoiding saying anything. Also if you had a better idea of how Turkey has been made the focus of territorial border shifting games for decades primarily through the Kurdish issue, you wouldn't dare call that stupid. Even 9 out of 10 Armeanians living in Turkey, at least in my own experience, will tell you more or less the same things. Because there are Armenians living in Armenia, Armenians still living in Turkey and then there are Armenian diasporas. All of them are different groups of people with more than slightly different mindsets about this issue.

Improvement of the Turkish image you say? That is not coming in any foreseeable future. Not with a tick persistently sucking the blood out of the country and, as I mentioned above, publicly calls people "Armenian" for an insult.

[Kafein]

If you had paid more attention, you would understand that I am not avoiding saying anything. Also if you had a better idea of how Turkey has been made the focus of territorial border shifting games for decades primarily through the Kurdish issue, you wouldn't dare call that stupid. Even 9 out of 10 Armeanians living in Turkey, at least in my own experience, will tell you more or less the same things. Because there are Armenians living in Armenia, Armenians still living in Turkey and then there are Armenian diasporas. All of them are different groups of people with more than slightly different mindsets about this issue.

And? If that ever happens, nobody is going to ask Turkey anyway. Coming to terms with history would help ease tensions.

Improvement of the Turkish image you say? That is not coming in any foreseeable future. Not with a tick persistently sucking the blood out of the country and, as I mentioned above, publicly calls people "Armenian" for an insult.

Not denying history would be an improvement nonetheless. I know it's just not going to happen with Erdogan though.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I clearly consider that the massacre of armenians was a genocide. But the EU just use it as an excuse to exclude turkey and to tear them apart from them.

And in no-way a genocide recognition should be endorsed on another country, this is just counter-productive. It puts the accused country in a stance of defence that will only strengthen nationalism and in terms negationism.

Plus if people don't understand the concept by themselves but just agree to comply with the international community will, nothing has been gained, in their mind people will still think there were no genocide.

Genocide should be used to get people together not to tear them apart. It saddens me in Asia to see that the crime committed by Japan still cause tension whereas ppl should learn from it to distance themselves from past stance and get together.

And another exemple (a bit offtopic) of what happens when you try to enforce your state of mind by agressiv activism. Some gay associations in France put a lot of pressure on Jamaican singers, trying to ban their concert and stuff to fight against homphobia.(This was not really needed imo as none of rasta/hippie in France would ever get homphob because of the lyrics). Now instead of of reducing homphobia, homophobe lyrics are now more considered in Jamaica as an act of realness and refusal to comply with western will.

edit:

Actually, very few people care about this. Media coverage was piss poor. It has passed 100 years since it happened and we still don't know much about it. That is why people are interested.

I've linked source at the end of the post. It is taken from history.com

Don't feel bad, Turkey isn't the only country denying their past crimes. Japan does it too.

I don't know where you live but in France and Switzerland there's a lot of media coverage on armenian genocide, especially when Sarcozy was using it as a political tool.

And about Japan, I think it is a little bit different. Japan did commit awfull crime and lots of killing in continental asia but the aim was never to wipe out the population. It was war crime, and result of lack of empathy for other asians.

Germany is the only country that dealt well with its past and really learnt from it. You can see in their foreign politics that they know what killing and bombing means and wage war as easily as other western nations. And what they learnt from the shoah is not that now Israel must be backed up not matter what but that you have to be carefull when there's persecution against a minority no matter which one because that is a slippery path.

[Leshma]

And about Japan, I think it is a little bit different. Japan did commit awfull crime and lots of killing in continental asia but the aim was never to wipe out the population. It was war crime, and result of lack of empathy for other asians.

Forget the numbers, that is wrong. Intention was to kill every man, woman and child in an area and they succeeded.

Same happened in Srebrenica. Why court said Srebrenica was massacre and not genocide? Because of numbers? Nope. Srebrenica is touchy subject for UN forces, more specifically Dutch soldiers who were peacekeepers and were watching the genocide unfolding literally in front of their eyes and doing absolutely nothing. If Dutch court (Hague) called it genocide that would shift part of the blame for that genocide towards European countries who not just they didn't react but they actually had intel it is going to happen and didn't do anything to stop it or help those people in any way.

When it comes to crimes against humanity, of this magnitude, intention is what matters. Nationalist Serb forces in Srebrenica didn't have enough time to ensemble proper concentration camp but they did systematically kill people in that area. Japanese didn't bother, they just killed and raped everybody.

Armenian genocide lasted long enough, there were social events prior to it that resemble what happened to Jews in Germany at the end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century. There also were concentration camps and Armenians were systematically killed.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

Well the numbers are way bigger in chinese-japanese case (9'000'000 civil killed during the war+occupation), but the intention is different. The goal of japanese was never to eradicate chinese that's why it is not a crime against humanity but a war crime.