Author Topic: Rewamp some things in the mod...  (Read 1958 times)

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Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2015, 10:02:06 pm »
0
Don't tell me dividing price by 1.5 or 2 on the longspear/pike to make it a common infantry weapon is a crime. This kind of weapon would be one of my last choice, since you barely get any cav with that (they all avoid you like plague), there's almost no chance to win a duel with it, and even less chance to be alive after a 2v1. Oh, and it's 3 slots. Giving a nice chance to new players to support their team with those items is the way to go, instead of giving them useless 1h swords they don't know how to operate.

Offline Switchtense

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2015, 10:16:11 pm »
0
Reducing the price would be acceptable I guess. Since it does not affect the gameplay.

But new players would still glance 7/10 stabs. And 2 of those 3 hits would be teamhits.


Especially the Pike, but also the Long Spear, require very well timed stabs to hit the opponent efficiently. On top comes abusing of mechanics. Turning or tilting into the stab to land the hit, whereas a normal frontal stab would glance. Footwork is important as well to get stabs in and not glance.

While at the same time they can grab a 2h or Bardiche, run in with some armour and swing like a nuthead and get a kill or at least do some damage.
So I am not sure reducing the price will make any difference in players using Long Spear and Pike. The only thing would be making them 2 slots. But then every 2h hero would grab a Long Spear or Pike.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2015, 10:44:09 pm »
0
Reducing the price would be acceptable I guess. Since it does not affect the gameplay.

But new players would still glance 7/10 stabs. And 2 of those 3 hits would be teamhits.


Especially the Pike, but also the Long Spear, require very well timed stabs to hit the opponent efficiently. On top comes abusing of mechanics. Turning or tilting into the stab to land the hit, whereas a normal frontal stab would glance. Footwork is important as well to get stabs in and not glance.

While at the same time they can grab a 2h or Bardiche, run in with some armour and swing like a nuthead and get a kill or at least do some damage.
So I am not sure reducing the price will make any difference in players using Long Spear and Pike. The only thing would be making them 2 slots. But then every 2h hero would grab a Long Spear or Pike.

Can't tell, but maybe an increase of the zone of damage peak of the two handed polearms's stab (not the 2hs, I meant the pike/longspear stabs) would make it easier to use for new players. But I don't think balancers will forcefully agree...

Offline San

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2015, 10:49:19 pm »
0
I guess I didn't read your post closely enough, wasn't even thinking of price. I'll try to respond to as many points as I can from the OP.


  • buff ranged in the ways I listed in my post (hate me for that, I have an opinion that differs from yours).
1/ reduce a lot throwings price, and more generally, all ranged items's prices, to make it more affordable for new players.

2/ increase the randomization into ranged items (pin point accuracy jarids/longbow that don't kill in one headshot is exactly the opposite of common sense if you ask me). For that, a plain buff of damage would be fine (damages automatically reduce accuracy, that's the objective). Ranged players aren't snipers you know, but throwers, archers, and crossbowmen. They need to KILL, not to fire accurately some ridiculously weak sticks to the ennemy.

3/ Create a second wpf spread for ranged, that is two times (or something around) weaker than the melee spread. For example, a guy gainning like 40 wpf in one ranged spec should get 20 wpf in melee ones, or something around, to enforce fighting instead of kiting, and allowing more huscarl builds (shielder + throwing).

A lot of throwing is already cheap. I think the only throwing weapons that are overpriced are probably javelins (cause it's currently UP) and above. I think that the cheaper ones may be too weak. Hybridizing also noticeably decreases your throwing power. At least some of them have lower weight now.

I think this randomization you speak of can be handled by more extreme locational damage multipliers. I think that randomization in accuracy doesn't do too much to help. Sometimes your inaccuracy lands you a hit. It's ironically easier to dodge when you know exactly where the ranged weapon will land.

Changing shared wpf require a UI update on the website. I think it'll be easier to accept a behind-the-scenes change such as increasing the minimum wpf to be a value above 1, something around 70-100. It won't be perfect since it still kinda hurts other hybrid builds, but it'll be simple to do. I'm also in favor of ~170-180 wpf cap. High enough to be fast and indirectly raises importance of IF to keep that final wpf value.

Quote
  • Buff support melee classes, like pikers and spearmen. Decrease a lot the prices of the 1d weapons, add some of them, make them easier to handle for new players (improve stabbing with those slighly maybe ?) and maybe do kinda the same for 2d weapons (not talking about the high tier ones like the english bill, in fact, there should be some kind of axes used as a 2d weapon). -> If you're too weak, either take a shield or a pike, and stay near of your mates, or take ranged weapons, and skirmish/give support at the cost of your melee ability. To avoid them being overused because OP, buff slighly other weapons directly on their fighting abilities. No need to explain it's to make it having more benefits for old players that know how to play. I'm not that sure about this being needed, but I believe new players also go support.

I think the stats are quite good for these weapons, but you raise an interesting point on the price. The price is lined up equally with any other weapon. Maybe it would benefit to have artificially cheaper weapons for these classes. Even if you aren't skilled, you'll still make money and have fun, at least for the middle tier weapons.

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  • To counter the pike and 1d spears buff, buff again cavs. Even thought I really dislike cavalrymen, they're a part of the battlefield, and if everything is getting buffed, they deserve some love too. Horse archery, horse crossbowmen and particularly horse throwers need to be unfucked. The horse ranged should play a support role, definitely, but they should be way less accurate than the foot version of the class (except for horse throwing, which is actually hard, and inaccurate).

I think removing the 0 armor legs would go a long ways.  Devs wanted cav nerfed. HT is pretty easy with an optimized build. HT is anti horseman even more than the others, play that role and you'll make a large impact.

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  • Buff damages of medium tier weapons (thinking of the simple sword and the likes), they're completely useless, even at +3 rank.

One of the largest changes of the revival patch was the buff of low to mid weapons. The likes of the simple sword can't get any better without making it OP. How is 95 length, 102 speed, 25 pierce, and 30 cut at +3 useless? It'll do extremely well in a cheap gear environment and is only poor against plate (though 23-25p on stab is still good).

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  • Level 36 should be the new level for characters at 37. This will make OP builds become less OP, simple as that. Some builds are viable only if they are level 37, otherwise, they always lack something (athl, if, or whatever).

Up to the devs. Some builds are also complete at 36 and others at 38, depends on what you're trying to do.
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  • Even if you disagreed with the things I did write, you will however agree on the fact new players should be helped even more : give them the website adress when they log in, and improve the website by adding tips, builds, and listing the characteristics of each build.
A dev would need to do this. I think Harald did a great job, but there are still people who need help creating an account and getting properly started.

Can't tell, but maybe an increase of the zone of damage peak of the two handed polearms's stab (not the 2hs, I meant the pike/longspear stabs) would make it easier to use for new players. But I don't think balancers will forcefully agree...

Requires a dev. Only thing balancers can do is increase damage or tweak the animation itself. I think the damage scaling for stabs just follows the animation, otherwise you'd get instastabs and late dragging stabs. Damage is probably the most efficient way.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:53:58 pm by San »

Offline Nightmare798

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 11:06:32 pm »
-1
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 11:26:56 pm »
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Why should there be more randomization ? Because Acke, a thrower, managed to get a headshot on me from 30 metters, but I was still alive with a 32 armor helmet and 65hp. He said once he had something like 6PT. Sorry, but two things are retarded, the fact I'm alive with a massive piece of steel in my head, and the other fact, which is how the hell could he land an headshot like that. That's why there should be a damage buff, since "high" tier throwing weapons are just illogical, accurate, but terribly weak at the same time, not even talking about axes, that are barely doing anything.

When talking about prizes, well, you have to remember throwers were used to be skirmishers in history, and it's not that expensive to take a piece of wood and stick some steel at the end. Look how much it was used in strat. No throwers at all in battles because their equipment is just incredibly expensive, and consider also the fact they have to take 2 stacks of throwing most of time, even more. So, it leads to massive repair costs, as for archers with arrows. Reducing ranged items costs would be cool, even for crossbows. Heavily armed melee fighters had way more money to spend on equipment than archers, crossbowmen, or simple skirmishers, since they were simple hired men at best, with just enough money to buy some light armor after they purchased their weapons. I know that realism isn't compatible with the game, but it'd be nice to have some representative elements from history in the game.

Offline San

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2015, 12:49:25 am »
0
32 armor, 37p, 6PT, 170wpf, a headshot should deal  ~75-80 damage, 35 without the headshot multiplier (forget if multiplier was 2.2 or 2.3). Some damage is then lost over a distance and a little more if there was negative speed bonus. Add randomization and this 75 damage may actually be lower under favorable conditions. 6PT is supposed to be weak, get 8-11 PT. Decrease accuracy and it's not like you'll never get headshot. You may just get headshot when they weren't aiming there, actually. My pure strength thrower was dealing 25-30 damage to 18+ weight body armor with a strength build and throwing spears and a possible upcoming change increases that final damage by an extra 22%. On the flip side, bad shots will deal poor damage.

Stones is the least expensive weapon in the game.

Throwing is inherently flawed for strat and needed its price cut in strat. Throwing weapons consist of a bow+ammo or crossbow+ammo. You can cut costs with other ranged by minimizing the number of bows and crossbows, and just getting a lot of ammo. This is not a good example. For battle and siege, you typically have 12-24 high rate of fire and damage ammo for a 3-5 minute round.

With 4 stacks of throwing weapons, you're only ever going to repair it once a round. having to pay for 4k gold worth of weapons every round is chump change compared to 7-8k for cheap melee gear. Change it to 8k for the most expensive throwing vs. 12-15k for melee and the most expensive throwing is only slightly overpriced.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2015, 02:43:34 am »
0
Don't tell me dividing price by 1.5 or 2 on the longspear/pike to make it a common infantry weapon is a crime. This kind of weapon would be one of my last choice, since you barely get any cav with that (they all avoid you like plague), there's almost no chance to win a duel with it, and even less chance to be alive after a 2v1. Oh, and it's 3 slots. Giving a nice chance to new players to support their team with those items is the way to go, instead of giving them useless 1h swords they don't know how to operate.

You obviously dont use longspear to duel, and if you are in a 2v1 then you are in deep shit indeed but this only happens if you did your main job bad. When the big clash happens the side with better pikemen win because with them you can hit people basically no matter your position, you can force them to all down block and through this your team can roll through them. The only real threat in a big fight is if someone dives through to kill you, or if someone has a longer weapon (hoplites fear longspears, longspears fear pikes while pikes are easier to dive and punish).

Using the weapon to kill cav is nice sure but like said they avoid you, it just wont happen unless they get reckless.

I would not buff them in anyway (except removing turnrate nerf) because they are insanely powerful, just slightly harder to use than most other melee weapons. Also to not encourage more people to use them because they are annoying as hell to play against.
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Offline San

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2015, 03:03:43 am »
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2513: Fauchard
2974: Boar Spear
3267: Bamboo Spear
3273: Military Fork
3695: Spear
4797: Light Lance
5474: Lance
5474: Pike
5477: Long Spear
6185: Red Tassel Spear
6821: War Spear
7383: Battle Fork

After looking at this, aren't these weapons all cheap?

Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 10:06:12 am »
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Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g). I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are. And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2015, 11:28:25 am »
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Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g).
Repairing the pike is quite cheap actually. Even for me and I am constantly broke as fuck :D
You are not gonna use it with plate anyway. Piking is only really effective in combination with light - medium gear. Otherwise you are too slow to react to enemies accordingly.

I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are.
They are underused because they are more difficult than all those 4 directional weapons where you just have to swing and hope for a nice hit.

You only see the same people regularly running around with a Pike or Long Spear. The ones that are good with it.
You don't see many 2 directional polearm users either. Same reason.
People like to charge the enemy. Doing so with a pokeypolearm requires more skill than with a swinging weapon, because you cant feint the shit out of the enemy as effectively as with a 4 directional weapon. Also they are much easier to block (Even though downblocking seems extremely difficult seeing how many people fail at it)

And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).
The material of the weapon shouldn't matter. Otherwise people will say "Make Scotttish Halberd 2k gold. It only is a wooden stick with a chunk of metal on one end!"
Also blame the speed bonus for the amount of damage they do.
200 weapon proficiency with shitloads of athletics and that war spear kills you faster than you can even realise.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2015, 07:03:01 pm »
0
Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g). I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are. And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).

You are thinking with too much realism in mind.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2015, 07:30:37 pm »
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You are thinking with too much realism in mind.

Actually, if having some realism implemented could enforce teamplay on servers instead of massive yolo charges on half empty servers, I'm proud to be thinking with too much realism in mind. Would accept being killed in one hit if I could kill someone with three arrows.

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2015, 10:09:35 pm »
-1
Actually, if having some realism implemented could enforce teamplay on servers instead of massive yolo charges on half empty servers, I'm proud to be thinking with too much realism in mind. Would accept being killed in one hit if I could kill someone with three arrows.

Nothing will enforce teamplay, and teamplay doesnt really work without communication on TS. Yolocharges are fine by me as long as people stick in a clump. Also it sounds like you are saying that realism would bring more people to the mod which probably isnt true. And reducing prices on pikes and nerfing sideswings on spears probably wont bring any people in any way, and isnt needed for balance.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 10:41:07 pm »
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Nothing will enforce teamplay, and teamplay doesnt really work without communication on TS. Yolocharges are fine by me as long as people stick in a clump. Also it sounds like you are saying that realism would bring more people to the mod which probably isnt true. And reducing prices on pikes and nerfing sideswings on spears probably wont bring any people in any way, and isnt needed for balance.

Yolo charges are the most retarded thing ever - but I don't think I should keep talking about it since our conceptions of balance, realism, etc... are different, it's a matter of convictions. I loved the shit out of this game, until ranged was nerfed to shit, along other classes that weren't melee based. The result was in my opinion a gank/duel server instead of an actual battle server, where "teamplay" is just another word for killsteal. When I saw mercs activity going down, I was mostly alone on battlefield with my banner, and it allowed me to figure how freaking hard it is to play a class that requires protection while 95% of players you meet don't give a shit about you being alive or dead, since they already are 100 meters farther than you. It's this kind of thing I want to change. Not to mention everytime yolo charge fails because they charge into open/a huge archer nest, instead of using the most basic tactics, they keep charging and crying about how over powered classes that killed them are. For example. When archers were still a bit effective, they were told to shoot horse archers, but the thing is, melee smartasses let them die in stupid occasions that could have been avoided, and get killed by horse archers at their turn. Heskey said something around that, and I think it illutrate well what this mod became :

Quote
Why players should try to understand mechanics [of those classes] and get better if they can cry on forums to get them nerfed to ground ?


On the same note, I wonder now if some of the changes I proposed in the OP could be implemented if we bug hard enough a dev about it (mostly like website changes), and if there could be some kind of official poll to see if they want to see more teamplay or if they prefer things to stay like they are now.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 10:48:06 pm by Algarn »