Author Topic: What would make you come back?  (Read 4739 times)

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Offline dontgothere

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 07:46:10 pm »
+1
more 2010/2011 style crpg, forget trying to make it particularly realistic, BRING BACK LADDERS

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 08:40:44 pm »
0
more 2010/2011 style crpg, forget trying to make it particularly realistic, BRING BACK LADDERS

The thing with ladders is that they make archers invincible except to other archers. Not sure how this would work now with flags popping up but generally players are too impatient and stupid to wait so theyll charge ranged no matter what. Ladders needs to be implemented with some tweaks like making them unkillable but even then they could be abused for other things...
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Offline Teeth

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 10:40:27 pm »
+3
I know, but people around here like to say how game is old and that's the reason for low population, completely ignoring that mod design is bad and that is the actual reason alongside awful marketing (not the strongest side of donkey crew as we could see).

It is easier for native to get players because that is the default option when you buy the game, but cRPG used to have more players than native at one point and there were many servers. What we call EU1 today is actually EU4 of the past with same old players that played there (Fin's DoGs, SoA, Dolphin, only Zlisch is missing). What we called EU2 two weeks ago (while there were still players) was 3rd choice siege server (both EU2 and HRE were near full at that time). EU1 had 100+ players, 50 during the whole night. Rageball was full, we had two full DTV servers. Just a reminder for those who forgot what cRPG used to be and what has become.

Certain devs used to mock other games and even native for their lower population. Blast from the past, as they say.
You are completely ignoring that the stream of new players has always been very small and that the server population of 2013 consisted of many of the same players that played in 2012, many of the players in 2012 were the same players as in 2011 and the same for every year. cRPG's server population has always been disproportionate to it's supporting playerbase, with extremely active players that play a lot and play for a lengthy period of time. A side effect of this is that the average player skill has consistently risen, making the game less accessible even though the grind got more and more accessible. From the start of 2013 and onwards this mod got hard to enjoy to anyone that isn't a hardcore gamer or a quick learner, regardless of any design choices. The mod is dying now because the players that started playing in 2010-2012 have been playing this shit for a minimum of three years and after that there haven't been a lot of new players that managed to stick around.

We oldmy old friends got too good for newmy old friends and then we oldmy old friends got bored. It is as simple as that.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 10:44:28 pm by Teeth »

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 11:12:23 pm »
0
Jeez, it's not your fault but i really find the 'crpg players are just too good' argument to be the most arrogant-sounding thing in the world. I dont especially think it's true but that depends on what you're definition of 'skill' is and it's not something we'll ever agree on.

Well its not like theres multiple defenitions of skill, there are multiple areas to be skillfull in and the average crpg player is probably well over the skill level the average native player has. Such as the average awareness, blocking skill, footwork, teamwork etc..
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Offline Teeth

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 11:17:51 pm »
+2
Jeez, it's not your fault but i really find the 'crpg players are just too good' argument to be the most arrogant-sounding thing in the world. I dont especially think it's true but that depends on what you're definition of 'skill' is and it's not something we'll ever agree on.
I'll put it in terms you might agree to then, it really changes nothing to the argument. The ability of cRPG players to exploit the mechanics to their most retarded extent has made the game very unaccessible to anyone but the most scrubby elitist pricks that are willing to learn to do the same my old friendgotry.

It's not about me being proud of how awesomely skilled cRPG players are, it is about the logical scenario that unfolds when a small community consisting of players that are very active and are active for a long time, share the same few servers with any potential new players. Native still has servers which are at the 2011 cRPG skill level and remain attractive to new players to date, partly because few people are abusing the mechanics to the max. Case and point: NeoGK Siege, the most populated Native server.



Imagine Counter-Strike having a single server on which everybody would play, surely the fact that the top 5% can utterly destroy anyone who just starts playing would affect it's attractiveness to more casually oriented newcomers. Surely the community on this server would condense into a very small and highly skilled group with little fresh blood. If these players get bored after 2000-4000 hours, wouldn't you say the game died of old age for them, instead of the latest patch which changed the recoil pattern of the 4th bullet of the AK slightly? Of course some of these old players will blame this change as the reason for them quitting, but they have suffered through worse design in periods before with a smile on their face, because they were less bored. However, if Counter-Strike would have other servers with mechanics that make them unattractive for the top players, then the game would continue to refresh its stock and offer a place for new players to learn the game at their own enjoyable pace.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 11:20:54 pm by Teeth »

Offline Leshma

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 12:12:50 am »
+1
cRPG players do seem more skilled than most native players. However when I enter cRPG server after playing native I'm able to pull some amazing things. Just like when you come to EU1 after dueling on EU3 for awhile. That is because native combat is much faster and footwork have bigger impact because everybody is slow (dazzling forward/backwards with 10 athletics isn't good footwork, any fool with such build can do it).

Would like to see more even cRPG, like native is, to be able to claim that cRPG players are in fact the more skilled ones.

Offline Thomek

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 12:45:03 am »
0
I agree with Teeth's representation. Main problem is that you need a constant flux of fresh players to stay alive in the long run. At times the hill has been very steep to climb for new players. The game felt rigged. Still think cRPG is way superior to the horrible OPness of ranged and cav and certain weapons in Native. In some ways it is milder and less random than native.

What native does however is neutralize skill with the most OP weapons. With any long 2h or pole you will get shot to pieces in a matter of seconds. cRPG rewards skill and understanding the mechanics much more. You need to be quite decent to get anything done, which is not good for noobs.

It's a horrible dilemma. On one hand, you want an easy class to play for noobs (ranged, shield?), but how to make it so that it won't get its power abused to shit by the pro's?
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Offline Leshma

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 01:18:43 am »
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Thomek, while you're here want to congratulate you on top job you did with M:BG Kickstarter. Someone might snatch you from chadz's hands :wink:

Offline Algarn

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 01:23:42 am »
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Basically, there should be some classed that everyone can go for, that will deal sufficient damages, easy to understand, but that got limited power -> easy, but not abusable by old players, that should go for something else more rewarding. These classes in history, normally were either pikeman/spearman or persons with bows, crossbows, or with throwing weaponry, affordable for everyone (ok, not for the crossbow part, a peasant cannot afford an arbalest), and extremely simple to use, in all cases (what is hard in staying behind real melee players to give them support and cover ?).

How to make it rewarding for new players and non abusable by old ones ? Don't know at all about that. Some builds, with high level, tend to become extremely over powered (either some insanely fast guy, dealing utterly retarded damages because bonus speed, or some 27/21 build, one hitting people and tanking everything).

Ranged should be some kind of rewarding for new players because a lot of players played this class in native, it's THE meta class you played in singleplayer/multi at the beggining. To illustrate, in cRPG, throwers got low ammo, but should deal normally huge damage (taking a jarid in the head shouldn't let you alive, come on...). Everything should be done with this class to be playable by new players, but ... atm, it's expensive, heavy (retarded weight on stacks), and "eats" your melee ability, unless you're high level. The fact throwing was historically very used in armies by peasants is explainned by the simplicity of the work : you come, you throw some lances/axes, and you charge and die for your motherland. Simple, but quite limiting compared to archery and crossbowmen, that got more durability, shooting from far and staying in safe zones controlled by the team, and aiming skill is setting the skill ceilling a bit higher compared to throwing, since you know you won't 1 or 2 hit kills quickly (with arbalest, a missed shot can be fatal, with a bow, a missed shot is almost nothing, but you need more than 4 arrows to kill the medium armored lad nowadays).

About spearmen, make it forgiving (increase the landing zone of stabs maybe ?), but buff the other melee classes at the same to avoid that a lot of old players go for these classes, that are less rewarding than shielder, 2h, polearmer, etc ...

TLDR : Reduce ranged's weapons's price (make it affordable in this order : throwing, archery, crossbows). Then, buff throwing damages and make it more randomized (if you have aiming skills, you'll go archer or crossbowman), and buff support melee classes in a way or another (reduce greatly the price, make stabbing a bit easier to handle, and increase the variety of 1d and 2d weapons, put some with low price filling their own niche), but buff all damages of melee weapons to avoid having a shitload of pikemen and spearmen.

I believe it's imperfect as hell, but I think it must be reflected on, particularly on the melee part. Oh, and sorry for the wall of text, but nothing is simple anymore.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 01:37:42 am by Algarn »

Offline Rico

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 01:33:13 am »
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It's a horrible dilemma. On one hand, you want an easy class to play for noobs (ranged, shield?), but how to make it so that it won't get its power abused to shit by the pro's?

Just sharing my opinion on this line. It's cool if you disagree, I am not claiming to have any "wisdom".
  • Crossbow is playable for beginners. However, they tend to overestimate the effectiveness of the Arbalest and underestimate the impact of Athletics and crossbow wpf, which leads to inaccurate aim, slow reload and the inability to move with the flow of the team on Battle. It takes several generations to realize that more wpf may be necessary, and other crossbows are more practical than the Arbalest for many reasons.
  • Throwing has its place in hybrid builds, i.e. 5 PT and daggers. Hybrid means tradeoff though, and it makes the other aspect of the build worse than a dedicated choice. I would not recommend full thrower to any beginner, because the effective range is low and the melee capabilities without PD is nonexistent. It's hard enough not to glance off armor with an unloomed weapon and say 5 PS/50 wpf.
  • I know most of you guys hate archery and say it's overpowered, but as a matter of fact, it is much weaker than it has been in any other era of cRPG. The quiver weight is back to the old maximum of 10, the ammo is lower than ever, the bow damage has been reduced by 2, the high-tier bows have a very curved trajectory. Most infantry players survive a headshot of any bow and arrow combination and any build because of their helmets, and obviously even more body shots are required to get a kill. Kiting is impossible due to quiver weight and ammo count. Even loomed arrows get a weight malus compared to unloomed arrows. Archery sure has the advantage of a high rate of fire and high accuracy over long distances, but it is harder than ever to play, and I never considered a beginner's class to the first place, because everybody aims, slashes, thrusts, runs or rides at you because you carry a bow. In my experience, archery is a class which requires quite some skill, and beginners won't have a chance to influence the battlefield when they play as an archer for their first generations at least. Of course, I am not saying it's bad like this, since I personally enjoy the challenge of playing archer on alts, but it does not seem like a beginner thing to me.
  • Shielder seems to be the obvious easy-mode class because it does not require manual blocking. However, the difference between a loomed and an unloomed shield, and high and low shieldskill is huge. For beginners who aren't even proficient at moving the camera with their swing direction and decent footwork, the feinting time with shields takes forever. They hit the right mouse button when they see the attack coming, but the shield is never up in time to block the strike. Shields become reactive with higher shield skill, loomed shields, footwork and camera movement, but before that, it's really a terrible choice.
  • Polearm and Twohand have the hindrance of manual blocking, but some builds can work around it. A Katana or Long Axe user does not have to block, it is enough to dodge the first enemy hit with high athletics, then spam. It won't work against good players, but other new players and DTV bots will certainly die to that. This is about as much as a realistically thinking beginner expects, so I'd say that Polearm and Twohand are more qualified to be beginner classes. Additionally, these classes provide a steep learning curve due to manual blocking, analyzing the battlefield quickly and teamplay with shielders, ranged and cavalry - like exploiting the chance to attack freely without worrying about blocking, optimal usage of projectile stun and stagger, and bumps, as well as the relative positioning in general. Of course, mastering both classes takes a long time and a lot of skill and good observation, but being okay at these is easier than for ranged players and shielders in my opinion.

One thing that's kind of terrible is that hybrid archer seems to be the most popular choice among beginners. Archers can't afford to waste a single skill or attribute point, yet new players assume that every class is perfectly viable, and so is hybrid archer. They fail hard, and that may be a reason while some people quit.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2015, 01:41:29 am »
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Making archers with shields viable would be a nice move indeed. Didn't think about that to be honest.

Offline Rico

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 01:46:05 am »
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Making archers with shields viable would be a nice move indeed. Didn't think about that to be honest.

My implied suggestion would have been making beginners abstain from this combination by providing more on-website information on the mechanics etc., but just making the class viable would work too :lol:
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Offline Torost

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2015, 11:22:26 am »
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might start playing again if it was actually possible.. mounted throwing got 90% broken last patch.

Offline AwesomeHail

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2015, 01:41:46 pm »
+1
im only sticking around because it would be a waste to not use the thousands of hours i put in this shithole, and of the ''friends'' i made here
we should get a clanless or just a group TS for everyone on siege for ex, attacking and defending side, that would be great
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Offline Jarold

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Re: What would make you come back?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 07:44:55 am »
+6
I would come back if my old friends still played. Good times. Its almost sad really.  :cry: