Author Topic: Archery meta, your opinions are needed  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline Algarn

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Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« on: November 12, 2014, 05:18:57 pm »
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I've been asking myself if people wouldn't prefer another archery. Basically, the one we got is pin point accuracy with any kind of armor (Played with a kuyak last days, was lulzy to have pin point accuracy), with high power draw builds, which means a trajectory for the arrow which is almost straight, but no damage except for the headshots.

Another archery system is possible, by keeping the "accuracy" value the same, but increasing a lot the damages, which will change the current meta based on pin point accuracy, and replace it by a more randomized system. (headshots will be lucky, lets say it like it would be), but the normal shots (body, leg, arms), will have slighly less frequency as before, but will happen in 90% of cases. Basically, a headshot would be a instant kill, but it won't happen much.

The ranged meta atm is :

Throwing got low damage, poor accuracy compared to archery, and shit range, but still, high speed rating (you can throw your spears/axes quickly).
Archery got low damage (still, you do as much as throwers with high PD), better accuracy, better range, medium speed rating.
Crossbows got high damage, high accuracy, high range, low (really bad) speed rating.


The changes needed in my humble opinion are

Throwing got high damage, poor accuracy (depending on the build), low range, high speed rating
Archery got medium damage, medium accuracy, medium range, medium speed rating, medium ammo size.
Crossbows got high damage, high accuracy, high range, really  bad speed rating medium ammo size.

I don't know what changes would be needed for throwing to make it happen, but buffing damages would be enough to lower accuracy. I know what changes are needed, and here are the proposed stats of bows.



Short Bow
missile speed: 42 
weight: 2
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 1
speed rating: 62
missile speed: 42
thrust damage: 27 cut    (Current : 20 cut)
slots: 1
871


Nomad Bow
missile speed: 45            (Current : 48)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102
difficulty: 2
speed rating: 68
missile speed: 45
thrust damage: 25 cut      (Current : 18)
slots: 1
1,356


Tatar Bow
missile speed: 44       (Current : 46)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102
difficulty: 3
speed rating: 65
missile speed: 44
thrust damage: 26 cut      (Current :19)
slots: 1
3,787


Bow
missile speed: 42   
weight: 3.5
accuracy: 101
difficulty: 4
speed rating: 58
missile speed: 42
thrust damage: 30 cut     (Current : 25)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
5,188


Horn Bow
missile speed: 43          (Current : 44)
weight: 2.7
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 5
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 43
thrust damage: 28 cut     (Current : 21)
slots: 1
7,896

Yumi
missile speed: 38
weight: 3.2
accuracy: 105
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 38
thrust damage: 30 cut      (Current : 23)
slots: 1

8,658
Rus Bow
missile speed: 41
weight: 3.7
accuracy: 105
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 56
missile speed: 41
thrust damage: 33 cut       (Current : 25)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
9,974

Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 106
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 52
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 35 cut        (Current : 28)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
11,100


Basically, if I'm right, this massive damage increase would lower a lot accuracy, and a global missile speed for low tier bows would remove the point and click we had before the last patch, which was like some kind of counter strike bullshit. One of the most important thing we could see is, a stop for the bullshit we see everyday on EU1 : porcupines, with 6 arrows in the body, still fighting like demons.

Values are suggestions only, I believe there must be a lot of tests before these changes are implemented in the mod, if balancers ever agree about these.

Also, I saw something interesting in Battle of Europe, archers aren't able to kite, since their moving speed while drawing the bow is reduced by 50% or something like that. A change like it would prevent shotgunning with high damage bows, but in return, giving slighly more wpf to archers to put in melee would be nice. Little disclaimer, I don't want to see archers with 150 wpf, but it'd be nice if we could get something around 50/60 wpf easily (I saw that somehow, if you put ranged wpf, you'll need more wpp to get wpf in melee).


I want these changes, because I'm sick of the current situation, everyone please note I didn't suggest a BUFF, but a CHANGE in the way to play archery. Now, feel free to rape the minus button and hate me because I had an idea to change the current situation which is like FPS games.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:59:53 pm by Algarn »

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 06:50:56 pm »
+2
I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 07:10:10 pm »
+1
I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.

Offline Molly

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 07:40:53 pm »
+2
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.
Play Counterstrike or CoD then...

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Offline San

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 08:04:11 pm »
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Can you list the old stats next to the new ones? You mentioned ammo size, but any specific value in mind? Decreasing accuracy hurts hybrids the most since you'll need to devote more wpf to get into a competitive region. I'll have to look at the reticule sizes for a variety of builds and check damage.

There aren't any triggers for drawing a weapon that I could find. The best I found was a trigger from releasing a shot. Also doubtful that there's a speed modifier for ground movement.

I think it'll be easier to just change the ranged locational damage modifiers along with a tiny damage buff vs. a large damage buff. A large damage buff would increase the raw damage to unmanageable levels. Ranged only deals 85-90% final damage at most places, limbs at 65-75%, and the head ~230%, assuming these are being used vs. something in WSE2. Perhaps increase chest shots from 90% to 110%, back shots from 90% to 100%, head shots to 250%, and decrease limb damage by 5-10%.

Offline Molly

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 08:09:18 pm »
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Why change ranged? It really is fine atm. Played my thrower couple of times and I am satisfied. Archers still kill me in 3 body shots... I don't see the point for changing things.

There are obviously only a few single individuals who want their former archery powerhouses back. The majority seems to be fine with it. It's not like there is nobody playing archer anymore. On the contrary, they are still there in numbers but they don't kill off the server population in 10 minutes...


Just leave it be for the love of God... -.-
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 08:55:34 pm »
+2
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.

I don't want to be able to hybrid into ranged, I want my swings to kill people.

Offline Algarn

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 09:01:33 pm »
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Updated the OP showing now values in the shop.  Actually, even if damage is buffed, two more arrows per quiver would be cool, since if you're going to miss more often arrows, there should be a slight compensation on this side.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 09:08:57 pm »
+4
The point of quiver size is that you should not have enough to survive a whole round shooting at things.

Offline McKli_PL

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 10:48:19 pm »
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I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
archer/melee hybryd top lel kek ftw :mrgreen: to be effective good,archer(not a fucking peasant with bow stealing low hp frags in the end of the round) you need to sacrifice about all stats and put it into High Pd/Wpf like build 27/24 9pd +180wpf long bow to damage seriously high level polearms/2h's so there isn't even a lot of points to spend on Ath not to mention 1ps, hybryd my ass

Offline AwesomeHail

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 11:13:01 pm »
+4
played 24/18, 27/18, 30/15 and 18/27 archer with +3 long bow and +3 bodkins (sometimes barbed) arrows and with less than 3 total armor weight on my stf after this patch. Needless to say, it sucked. it really did. with 27/18 i needed 2-4 shots to kill a low leveled guy who had 20 body armor 2 if and 15 str. Thats just underpowered. Before you say ''You know nothing Jon Snow'' try archer yourself. Grab some gear from armoury and test some builds. Now you will see that its not so easy peasy as you think to kill or even hurt someone.

i personally dont really like playing vs ranged, since im cav now, and before that never had much if and armor, but now after this patch i am way less afraid of archers because of their mostly non threatening damage to me or my allies.

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Offline San

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 11:38:27 pm »
+1
@skeletzo, archers can actually use the 8-11 weight body armor now, especially with IF, so that would be an act that's crippling yourself.

Plugging in the numbers, it's close to shooting out Heavy Xbow shots on the high end. Still a fan of buffing abdomen and head shots and nerfing limb damage for all ranged since it deals with final damage vs raw. It'll do around the same thing in a cleaner manner (light vs medium vs plate expected damage) and give a better use to the abundance of accuracy. This wasn't an option in the past because we weren't sure if they were functioning. The limb damage modifiers worked when I ran a test server a few days ago, but I'm still not 100% certain if it's used on the official servers.

Offline AwesomeHail

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 12:42:20 am »
-1
Is it possible to make people stagger more, but do less damage when they get hit in a limb? that would be good
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 01:09:27 am »
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archer/melee hybryd top lel kek ftw :mrgreen: to be effective good,archer(not a fucking peasant with bow stealing low hp frags in the end of the round) you need to sacrifice about all stats and put it into High Pd/Wpf like build 27/24 9pd +180wpf long bow to damage seriously high level polearms/2h's so there isn't even a lot of points to spend on Ath not to mention 1ps, hybryd my ass

I did longbow 18/24, im pretty shit at shooting but i managed to dish out enough damage to make the hybrid worth while. And i could fuck most people up in melee aswell. Pure archers definitely seems to be doing fine in this patch anyways, you just have to be really good at it.
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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 03:14:50 am »
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The damage numbers in the OP are way too high for the current draw speeds. (Probably way too high in general since PD gets the dumbest multipliers tbh)

Even with the proposed missile speed nerfs, archery and throwing both get their missile speed boosted by their STR based skills (PD, PT), they'll still fly much faster than crossbow bolts.

For archery, the formula for this is

Code: [Select]
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
Translation:

A missile speed of 40 at 6 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
39 at 7 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
37 at 8 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
36 at 9 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
35 at 10 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed

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Raw damages (These numbers assume no armor penalties)

Proposed +3 Short Bow, +3 Bodkins
210 WPF, 5 PD: 56.98

Proposed +3 Nomad Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 56.37

Proposed +3 Tatar Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 58.36
184 PWF, 7 PD: 61.2

Proposed +3 Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 66.33
184 WPF, 7 PD: 69.47
170 WPF, 8 PD: 72.31

Proposed +3 Horn Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 62.35
184 WPF, 7 PD: 65.34
170 WPF, 8 PD: 68.02
155 WPF, 9 PD: 70.43

Proposed +3 Yumi Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 66.33
184 WPF, 7 PD: 69.47
170 WPF, 8 PD: 72.31
155 WPF, 9 PD: 74.81
139 WPF, 10 PD: 76.98

Proposed +3 Rus Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 72.31
184 WPF, 7 PD: 75.67
170 WPF, 8 PD: 78.71
155 WPF, 9 PD: 81.37
139 WPF, 10 PD: 83.69

Proposed +3 Long Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 76.29
184 WPF, 7 PD: 79.8
170 WPF, 8 PD: 82.98
155 WPF, 9 PD: 85.75
139 WPF, 10 PD: 88.16

Proposed +3 Long Bow, +3 Tatar
198 WPF, 6 PD: 92.23

To put things in perspective:

Current +3 Jarids
139 WPF, 10 PT: 75.69

Current +3 Heavy Throwing Axes
139 WPF, 10 PT: 91.78

With the proposed damage numbers, archery would have to have spray and pray accuracy with lower draw speed (esp. on the lighter bows), since their projectile speeds are several times greater, and their ammo count is still much higher than throwing.