nudge with shield! plzpzlzplz

[raul_hazar]

THANK DEVs FOR FANCY MOD AND THEIR HARD and AWESOME WORK and blablablablab ))
Could u also make nudge vith shield to open protection not so soon. It could be interrupted instead. Now shield technikaly disappears when animation is kinda just about to start. PLZPlZPLZ repair! shield-nudging is very important and often only ani-rape future.

[Hellsing]

Also shieldnuge takedowns should not count as selfkill to the killed player.. Pretty annoying for them to loose a kill and no reward for me bumping this guy down that cliff ..

[Johammeth]

Also shieldnuge takedowns should not count as selfkill to the killed player.. Pretty annoying for them to loose a kill and no reward for me bumping this guy down that cliff ..

Disagree, nudge kills have the understated class of something that doesn't even care to bring attention to itself.

[Phew]

What the OP was trying to say (albeit not so eloquently) is that the defensive shield nudge leaves you open to attack during the entire (looong) duration of the animation, which is both unrealistic and makes the maneuver too risky to attempt against an aware player. It should function more like the polearm shove, which has a much shorter vulnerable window. If you are defensive nudging, it's because you are in trouble, and that's the last time you want to make yourself vulnerable to attack.

Also shieldnuge takedowns should not count as selfkill to the killed player.. Pretty annoying for them to loose a kill and no reward for me bumping this guy down that cliff ..

I also disagree. Often times, the negative points from the fall death often deprive your enemy of valor, which is much more satisfying that seeing another kill on your K:D.

[Soldier_of_God]

What the OP was trying to say (albeit not so eloquently) is that the defensive shield nudge leaves you open to attack during the entire (looong) duration of the animation, which is both unrealistic and makes the maneuver too risky to attempt against an aware player. It should function more like the polearm shove, which has a much shorter vulnerable window. If you are defensive nudging, it's because you are in trouble, and that's the last time you want to make yourself vulnerable to attack.

I also disagree. Often times, the negative points from the fall death often deprive your enemy of valor, which is much more satisfying that seeing another kill on your K:D.

Yeah, your shield literally disappears the moment you press V. I still sorta wish that weapons and shields existed in real time, like die by the sword, maybe in melee battlegrounds, so if you don't aim properly and you hit the opponents static weapon or shield it will still count as a block.

anyhow, yes, 1h shield animations are quite useless and often hurt more than help as opposed to polearm and 2h.

[Phew]

Yeah, your shield literally disappears the moment you press V. I still sorta wish that weapons and shields existed in real time, like die by the sword, maybe in melee battlegrounds, so if you don't aim properly and you hit the opponents static weapon or shield it will still count as a block.

anyhow, yes, 1h shield animations are quite useless and often hurt more than help as opposed to polearm and 2h.

Shield has the best neutral nudge, although ping+crappy hitboxes make it inexplicably whiff pretty frequently; the reach should be a function of shield height like the animation indicates. But yeah, shield has arguably the worst offensive and defensive nudges. One of the balancers mentioned changing the shield defensive nudge to behave more like the pole defensive nudge, but I think the current animation is fine; it just needs to offer melee protection during the early part of the animation.

[Jona]

What the OP was trying to say (albeit not so eloquently) is that the defensive shield nudge leaves you open to attack during the entire (looong) duration of the animation, which is both unrealistic and makes the maneuver too risky to attempt against an aware player. It should function more like the polearm shove, which has a much shorter vulnerable window. If you are defensive nudging, it's because you are in trouble, and that's the last time you want to make yourself vulnerable to attack.

I also disagree. Often times, the negative points from the fall death often deprive your enemy of valor, which is much more satisfying that seeing another kill on your K:D.

Are you sure that polearm nudges have a smaller "vulnerable" window? Being a hoplite, I utilize both nudges frequently, and they both seem to have a pretty similar animation time. The only difference is that the polearm nudge is in motion the whole time while the shield nudge leaves you vulnerable before moving in the beginning, then it kind of hangs in the air leaving you vulnerable once more at the end of the animation. That said, they seem to have incredibly similar effectiveness in that while the shield doesnt move in the beginning yet leaves you vulnerable, the polearm nudge does move in the beginning, but only to get into the correct position for the nudge. A similar thing happens at the end of the animation, where the polearm is retracted while the shield seems to just hang for a moment before rapidly being retracted (read: it basically teleports).

While it makes no sense that the shield turns into vapor during the duration of the animation, it would give shielders an unfair advantage if they could block hits while nudging. Sure, you might use this nudge defensively, but it is also commonly used offensively to knock players from walls, etc. If anything, remove the time where the shield turns into vapor at the beginning and end of the animation, when it isn't in motion. The only downside to that is then there is no warning for the other player or risk involved when nudging. As you said, shielders already have the strongest neutral nudge, and personally I am content with having 1 really good neutral nudge direction and 1 mediocre (yet effective when utilized properly) defensive nudge direction (with the offensive nudge being pretty similar to the neutral one). Those options still beat those of the polearms (as well as 2h and 1h).

[San]

I would like to have a forcefield vs ranged around the shield during the nudge and have it remain the same against melee, but I have no idea how to do it.

[Phew]

I would like to have a forcefield vs ranged around the shield during the nudge and have it remain the same against melee, but I have no idea how to do it.

This would at least prevent the rage-inducing mechanic of approaching an archer with shield raised while he holds a shot, pressing V to interrupt the archer, only to have him shoot you in the head during the early part of the nudge animation.

I don't think the defensive nudge should offer melee protection during the whole animation, because then it would be zero-risk. I think the "open window" should just be shifted later in the animation, so the shield would still offer protection during the early part of the animation, but you would be screwed if you whiffed. Defensive nudge should be the "oh crap" option when being mobbed, but currently it's much more effective to just neutral nudge then run through your enemy.

[Penitent]

Agree with Phew.  Defensive shield nudge is kind of like a "hit me" button because it leaves you open to attack for so long.

[Jona]

I agree that the defensive shield nudge shouldn't open you up for an attack so soon, however the only problem is that the animation starts where the shield is already located from holding your block. What I mean is that for a polearm nudge, if you are holding an up block, then you lower the polearm to chest level first, then push out with your weapon. The shield doesn't need to move at all before the defensive nudge, which makes it instantaneous if you can block the entire time up until it moves forwards. Currently the polearm and shield defensive nudges behave almost identically (from my personal observation) with the only difference being how much the polearm moves around compared to the shield during the early and later stages of the animation. I find polearm nudges a little easier to dodge since there is the split second "wind up" of the animation. I think that the shield nudge is a little more useful, and easier to land since there is less of a hint that you are about to nudge your opponent, other than obvious clues like working your way around your opponent to get their back to a cliff, holding your block for longer than necessary, etc. There is definitely a fine line between making shields have the best nudges in every category and making it more realistic/intuitive.

Defensive shield nudge is kind of like a "hit me" button because it leaves you open to attack for so long.

Agree to disagree. It is not as bad as you are making it sound, from my experience. By no means is it a free hit for your enemy, and there definitely needs to be some sort of risk involved. I personally suck at landing any kind of nudge, so while I use them rarely I find no difference between the defensive shield and polearm nudges. The neutral shield nudge is really the only one I employ on a regular basis (and I hate to admit, but I almost only use it to abuse the instant-weapon-swapping ability when I am hopliting).


Really, the only problem with nudges (as a whole) is their hit detection. Same can be said for kicks, I suppose. If their active hitbox/collision detection was made more obvious (read: made sense) then the issue of missing nudges and leaving yourself open to attacks so often would disappear almost entirely. The only thing that you should need to get right to land a nudge is the timing... there is some delay between hitting V and actually nudging in-game, which is as it should be and is perfectly fine. The issue is that you have almost no idea where you can hit someone without completely whiffing, thus leaving yourself open to an attack. Same goes for being on the receiving end of a nudge... so many times they seem to have absurd ghost reach, other times they pass right through me.

[San]

It's hard to say whether the range and duration is the same. To me, the polearm nudge hitbox flows much better than the shield's which has some odd delay. It's needed to keep it from being OP, but it's clunky nonetheless.

[Jona]

I agree, only I feel that with the polearm nudge I find myself getting hit by it closer to the end of the wind-up part of the animation than when the polearm is actually thrust forward, if that makes any sense.

To try and better illustrate what I mean:

Steps of the polearm nudge animation (when starting from an up block position):
1) Bring weapon back and down to chest level following a roughly-circular path.
2) After roughly 3/4 of the circular path has been completed, the polearm is more or less directly underneath where it was being held in the up block. <-- This is where the collision currently seems to happen.
3) The polearm is now thrust forwards.  <-- This is where the collision should happen
4) The polearm is retracted in an animation that seems like a reversed version of the forwards animation.

Looking at a step-by-step comparison of the shield nudge to the polearm nudge animation above, here is what the shield nudge looks like:
1) Shield is held exactly where is was whilst blocking, however shield is now not able to block anything.  <-- The cause of "delay"
2) Shield is thrust forwards, hitbox is active on the earlier side of this part of the animation.
3) Shield is left dangling in space, hitbox is no longer active.
4) Shield is quickly brought back to the blocking position (usually because whoever did the budge is still holding RMB).

So while the animations seem to have the same duration, the shield nudge has more "dead time," or delay, as you mentioned, which accommodates for the extra time the polearm nudge takes to "wind up."


Basically, if you could shave off some of the "delay time" for the shield nudge, and then push back the active hitbox time for both nudges*, then these two nudges should be easier to land since they will be more intuitive.


*By push back I don't mean to extend their effective time, only to make it start later and last the same amount of time. For example, if you are going to punch someone/thing, you don't line up the punch so that they are at point-blank range. You position yourself so that after bringing back your fist, you have the time/space necessary to fully accelerate your fist for maximum power. As it stands, the nudges are hitting people "point blank" as opposed to later in the animation, when the actual "pushing" motion is being done.

[Phew]

All I know is that when I see a shielder I don't know with an unloomed weapon (thanks Final Boss texture pack), I pull out my axe and just spam on their shield. Whenever they attempt a defensive nudge, I still hit them before the nudge lands. If the defensive shield nudge can't even get a spammer out of your face for 2 seconds, it's useless for its intended purpose. I personally only use it to troll gravity kills, but I fail much more often than I succeed.

Neutral nudge is a better defensive nudge than the actual defensive nudge. And I don't think I have ever been hit by the 2h pommel strike: that thing is so bad.

It's a shame that we have what, ~10 different nudges, but only half of them are even worth using (all neutral nudges, pole defensive, and 1h offensive). And kick is usually a better risk/reward proposition than any of them.

[Jona]

And kick is usually a better risk/reward proposition than any of them.

Just remember, kicking is only for my old friends!