Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?

[Mallets]

Asked this in General Discussions... but no real answers.  Thought I'd have better luck here.

Can someone explain this to me:

San: Ranged weight penalty made percentage-based and is now applied before the PT/PD/HA penalties as 1.5x the melee penalty.
San: Dynamic weight threshold added. Changed from 10 to max(IF*2, strength/3 + 1) with a minimum of 6.

Basically, I'm wanting to know the max armor weight I can take before penalties set in.  The old formula was:

Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10

Is the old formula no longer in use?  If so, what is the new formula?  I don't understand what San posted.

[Rico]

that's why you look at what i posted instead

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/upcoming-%27revival%27-patch/msg1081996/#msg1081996

[San]

Effective armor weight = (2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 6*hand armor weight - max(6, IF*2, Str/3 + 1))^1.12

You start off at 6, Strength > 18 and IF > 3 increases that minimum. IF of 5 or strength of 27 gives you 10, same as before.

The 1.12 was there before as well.

[Mallets]

Effective armor weight = (2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 6*hand armor weight - max(6, IF*2, Str/3 + 1))^1.12

You start off at 6, Strength > 18 and IF > 3 increases that minimum. IF of 5 or strength of 27 gives you 10, same as before.

The 1.12 was there before as well.

Thanks San, it makes sense now!  I knew the jist of it... that now WPF Pen would be based off the STR of a character.  Just didn't understand how that was calculated.  But got it now!

that's why you look at what i posted instead

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/upcoming-%27revival%27-patch/msg1081996/#msg1081996

Panuru, thanks man!  But how was I suppose to discover that post on page 45 of some thread!      But thanks again guys!

[Mallets]

Giving this disclaimer before we get started... using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html

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Let me put hard number to the formula that San posted... as it may help others understand.

(click to show/hide)

Level 34

Strength: 18
Agility: 21

Hit points: 65

Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 3
Athletics: 7
Power Throw: 6
Weapon Master: 7

Polearm: 101
Throwing: 140

Using San's formula to find my "Max" armor weight, I'd use IF to determine this.  Why?  Because...

STR = 18  ->  (18/3)+1 = 7
IF = 6       ->   6*2 = 12

You use the greater value... so I have a "Max" armor weight of 12.  This is nice, because in the past, it was set at 10.  So if a Ranged player has a high amount of IF, it helps them to wear heavier armor.

(click to show/hide)

Head = 1.7 (Saracen Helmet with Long Turban)
Body = 10.3 (Saracen Lamellar Cuirass)
Arms = 0.3 (Leather Gloves)
Legs = 0.1 (Serbian Ankle Boots)

So, plugging in my armor into the formula... along with my 12 max armor weight.

Head = 1.7 * 2 = 3.4
Body = 10.3
Arms = 0.3 * 6 = 1.8
Legs = 0.1
-----------------------------------
Total Weight = 15.6

Effective Armor Weight = (Total Weight - Max Armor)^1.12

(15.6 - 12) = 3.6^1.12 = 4.2

So my effective weight is 4.2.  Which means that a penalty will be incurred for being 4.2 effective weight.



Now how many points of WPF are penalized for my 4.2 Effective Armor Weight.  We'll calculating this penalty from the formula in the Mechanic's Mega Thread:

Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)

Going to work the formula in pieces, starting at the end:

1 - (.01 * 4.2) = .958

So, with my base throwing WPF at 140:

140 * .958 = 134.12

If I had base Thrwoing of 140, but now have 134.12... that means I have a 5.88 penalty to my WPF because of armor.  From what I know, this is round to 6.

So I have a penalty of 6 WPF incurred because of armor.  Mind you, I'd still have another 66 WPF penalty because of Power Throw.  You take your PT*11 to find that.  For every point of Power Throw, you have a WPF penalty.  This means the more PT you have, the greater the penalty.  As mentioned, it is PT*11.  This is different for Power Draw.  Not sure what the value is... but I know it's not PD*11.

So with that, my actual WPF is:

Base WPF - PT Penalty - Armor Weight Penalty = Effective WPF

140 - 66 - 6 = 68

I believe this is correct!  Hope this helps someone out.

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As mentioned at the top of the post using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html

[tkn123]

So with the end result, do you need that to be a certain number to be able to use different pt?

[Kaido]

Someone make a program or smthing.Im too stupid for this 

[Mallets]

So with the end result, do you need that to be a certain number to be able to use different pt?

Hey TKN, not sure what you're asking... but going to guess that you are asking if my final number effective which throwing weapons I can use.

The answer is... no.  If you have the proper PT points taken, you can use that weapon.  If you have 6 PT, you can use Throwing Lances, no matter what.


The final number I got was for my "Effective" WPF... which was 68.

Effective WPF is important for 2 reasons.

1)  That's your actual WPF for determining accuracy.  So even though I took 140 WPF in Throwing, if I wear the armor listed, I actually only have 68 WPF.  The more PT you take, the more WPF you need to be accurate.

2)  You have to have a positive "Effective" WPF to pick up throwing weapons (that have already been thrown).  You only need 1 effective WPF to do this.  However, if you only have 1 effective WPF, you would be very inaccurate.  You can have negative effective WPF... but you would not be able to pick up throwing weapons that have already been thrown.  If I were to put on very heavy armor... this would be the case... as my armor weights would cause me to have a negative effective WPF.  Heavy Gloves really effect this... since they are Glove Weight * 6.  Meaning Heavy Gauntlets at 2 weight are really like have 12 weight.  This makes since... because if you are Ranged... whether throwing or shooting a bow... having Plated Gloves would cause you be very inaccurate... if you could even throw or pull a bow string at all.

[Mallets]

Someone make a program or smthing.Im too stupid for this 

Kaido... just go naked.  Problem solved!      

[Mallets]

San... if any of this is wrong... sorry... maybe you could point out my mistakes!  Not so much for me, but for others.  I'd hate to steer folks in the wrong direction.

I'm actually using really light armor on my Thrower, so I know I'm under the limit.  The armor set I used as an example was on purpose to put myself over the limit.  It's an armor set I use on melee build.

[Mallets]

Added this disclaimer to my post calculating all the formulas and crunching all the numbers.

Using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html

San, when it's updated, can you make a simply post here saying so.  Thanks man!

[San]

It's updated.

If you have greasemonkey/tampermonkey, you can also use this for the c-rpg website (click on raw): https://gist.github.com/smj72/bd81b6fd62ff2b8b5a89

The wpf reduction is something along the lines of ((abs(100 - effective weight * (2/3)) * wpf) / 100). Ranged is the same, but take off the (2/3), then the PD/PT penalty is applied afterwards.

[Mallets]

Nice!  Thanks for updating San!  U iz awesome dude!

[HappyPhantom]

Commenting so I can find again. Chur.

[San]

I messed up some of the code but fixed it for archery/throwing and it lists PD/PT and armor penalties separately. I also learned how these things update (need to manually install one last time, then it'll update automatically).