Axes

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

I love em.

The stats however make no fucking sense and are all over the place...

After the two handed war axe every 2h axe is unbalanced...

The long axe has 1 more speed 23 more length and the same swing damage as the two handed war axe. All of the pole arm axes are balanced often faster than their 2h counter parts and dish out the same levels of damage.

With in the pole arm axes The Long War Axe and Long Great Axe do blunt on thrust, bu the Long Axe does cut on thrust... why??? The model looks almost exactly the same as the others?

It seems to me that one step to resolving this inequality! could be to simply make all axes balanced. On top of that to give people some reason to use 2h axes perhaps they should all come with a blunt alternate attack? Obviously the persian war axe already has an alt fire.

Also the persian war axe should be taken to 44 or 45 cut. Currently the Two Handed War Axe is better than it in every meaningful way.

Also consider pushing the speed of the Persian axes up by one. Currently it's quiet obvious even with my shit ping that the Two Handed War Axe is the better weapon, even against my beloved +3 Abdula (persian battle axe).

Another way to buff the Persian Battle Axe (but it's beyond me to help) would be to add a bloody great spike to the end making it the 2h equal of the german poleaxe but it should only get 22p max imo.

[agweber]

I agree that axes need looked at, but two points;

As everyone bitches, the animations do make a big difference, so you can't strictly compare stats

and the second point..

It seems to me that one step to resolving this inequality! could be to simply make all axes balanced.

No. There's been several realism discussions I've seen. Axes are supposed to be unbalanced. They're supposed to have good cutting potential because of this. Increase their damage and speed if anything, but do not make them all balanced.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Persian war axe has a 32p (whoops, was thinking of the wrong weapon) secondary mode, but the primary mode does seem oddly weak.

It might make sense to use the poll on the Persian Battle Axe to deal blunt damage, though I haven't gotten any feedback on that in the Item Unbalance section.

I think it'd make more sense to keep/make the 2h axes unbalanced but give them greater weight/damage so that they stun blocks more. More of the weight should be on the end vs something like a sword, but there's nothing in warband that actually differentiates weapons by model, they're all just seen as straight lines by the game.

Most of the polearm axes aren't unbalanced because they're held differently, more of the handle is behind the grip vs a 2h swing with the same weapon. You can see a pretty obvious difference with half-swording vs primary modes.

[San]

Persian War axe is getting buffed to 94 speed/42 cut. Its secondary mode is 32p which is quite good, but it's main mode is too useless. It may need further buffs along with the Two Handed War Axe both together.

Instead of buffing the Persian Battle Axe even more, I'd rather increase the price on the War Axe and just make it even stronger than the PBA while keeping the same speed.

[Phew]

For most of the history of cRPG, 2h had vastly superior animations to polearm, which justified inferior stats. But now polearm has the best overhead and right swing by far, and 2h only excels with its thrust (which 2h axes don't have).

The reason you see ten Long Axes for every Two Handed War Axe is that the Long Axe is faster, longer, heavier, has a thrust, and has superior animations. If you want to be an axeman, why on earth would you pick any 2h axe over the Long Axe?

[MURDERTRON]

Axes should trade length, awful or lack of stab and unbalanced tag for damage, and shield breaking, when compared to swords or bladed pole arms.  Speed should be the same or very close, not the garbage speed they have now.

[Penitent]

When you are looking at pole weapon length, subtract 20 (for the swing) This is the actual length.  The animation makes a difference.  With 2h weapons, you can add 20, to compare to weapons of a different class.

[San]

I think it's subtract 7 for right swing and 15 for left swing/overhead. Stab is like subtract 50 or something as a rough guess.

[Penitent]

I think it's subtract 7 for right swing and 15 for left swing/overhead. Stab is like subtract 50 or something as a rough guess.

Oh, I thought stab actually added length...
I can't for the life of me find the post of the guy who did all the testing for pole/2h/1h...

[San]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntqFkHWdItk The video isn't important, but the description details the ranges.

Stabs are potentially shorter because of altered sweetspots. Animations that were changed since this was created may be different.

[Phew]

Oh, I thought stab actually added length...
I can't for the life of me find the post of the guy who did all the testing for pole/2h/1h...

Those values probably changed when Tydeus messed with the pole animations anyway, but I remember the difference between pole and 2h right swing being on the order of 18cm, i.e. not enough to make the Two Handed War Axe competitive with the Long Axe.

I'd love to see the server stats on weapon usage. I bet you'd see a shocking rise in the popularity of polearms vs. 2h since Tydeus made the pole animations OP. You used to not being able to walk 3ft without tripping on a +3 Longsword/HBS, now it's that way with Long Axes/Becs/2D poles.

[San]

Anyways, Two Handed War Axe just has inferior (but still decent) stats, but it's a budget weapon. Long Axe / Bardiche are a little too cheap, too.

The overhead is a little fast, but you sure you aren't exaggerating? Many believe that pole stabs were nerfed and no one complains about the buffed left swing. 1h also received numerous animation buffs. Don't forget polestagger's removal whenever that happened. I thought polearms were overpowered with it back in the day since a fight against polearm + any other person was instantly lost after the first hit by the polearm.

[Phew]

The overhead is a little fast, but you sure you aren't exaggerating? Many believe that pole stabs were nerfed and no one complains about the buffed left swing. 1h also received numerous animation buffs. Don't forget polestagger's removal whenever that happened. I thought polearms were overpowered with it back in the day since a fight against polearm + any other person was instantly lost after the first hit by the polearm.

I don't think you appreciate how jerky the current polearm animations are for people with average or worse ping. My ISP bounces between 32-200 ms, so I see the full spectrum. At 32ms, the animations are fast but at least they render. At 70 ms, it's not uncommon for a swing to land before the weapon even leaves the ready position on your screen. This "jerkiness" of the pole overhead and right swing is a huge advantage; the smooth 2h animations are so much easier to react to.

I don't even have a 2h char, but I notice how much their popularity and effectiveness has plummeted since the polearm animation changes.

I think 1h is fine right now; the overhead is clearly better than 2h (but worse than pole), and stab is best or second best depending on situation. Sideswings are roughly on par with the other classes.

[San]

I've had to deal with medium ping spikes in 2011 for ~half a second+sliding, 5-10 second spikes where I can't move in 2012 and first half of 2013 up to 1-3 times a round, and small blips a few times a minute from then until now with ping between 27-50. The ping spikes did not discriminate against weapons. My connection is dream-like now compared to back then, really toned down on the rage, too.

Polearm right swing hasn't been touched and was always able to hit you at what looks like the hold animation, even with low ping. It has good hiltslash ability, too. The polearm overhead suddenly accelerates, making it faster than other animations of the same speed. I don't like how it suddenly accelerates, but I think it's not too difficult to adapt to it since it's quite short.

I definitely think it should be slowed down, but I think it's within the realm of being able to fight against it. Old polearm overhead and new polearm overhead are 2 extremes, and I want something in-between. Polearm overhead in the past was an easy double swing since it was so slow, and I'm glad that's gone at least, but it was indeed shifted too much and looks unnatural.

2h probably has one of the best overheads since it gains so much reach. It's slow, but just fast enough to avoid getting spammed. I recall Cyranule and Noodles utilizing its reach quite well. It's quite safe to say that all overheads in this game are great, depending on your turn speed.

[MURDERTRON]

Leave polearm overhead alone unless you are going to revert the stab nerf.  1h stab is just as quick as polearm overhead, has way more teach, is always pierce damage and doesn't get blocked by having Black Company shielders hanging out behind you for no reason.